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Front diff seal retaining ring - lost count of turns...what sounds right?


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26 replies to this topic

#1 grossgary

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 02:53 PM

2002 OBW H6 VDC
I have it marked perfectly so I'm either dead on or 360 degrees off....I'm uncertain of my six turn count....

Are passengers and drivers side typically similar?

Do you recall how many turns it tooktotal?
How many turns required a tool to reinstall - the last few degrees - or an entire turn or two?

 

It's probably likely that all are the same number of turns....i doubt any given outback is off from another by 360 degrees...


Edited by grossgary, 12 May 2013 - 12:20 PM.


#2 Idasho

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:24 PM

Those rings set the preload on the bearings.

 

Knowing how many turns others have needed is shooting in the dark and will certainly end in a broke trans.

 

With that said, with the bearings and races nested correctly when installing, the very last 180 degrees or so is pretty tight.    If you are on the mark now and can turn it without the use tools, you need one more turn.



#3 grossgary

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:35 PM

oh man thanks for some first hand experience, i thought I'd get no response.  leaving for vacation when i'm done..>LOL AH!

 

Those rings set the preload on the bearings.

 

Knowing how many turns others have needed is shooting in the dark and will certainly end in a broke trans.

 

With that said, with the bearings and races nested correctly when installing, the very last 180 degrees or so is pretty tight.    If you are on the mark now and can turn it without the use tools, you need one more turn.

 

yes, preload, i'm aware!  thanks for the feedback, awesome.  i was about to call GD lol.

 

i turned it by hand and needed 1/2 a turn (180 degrees) with tools to get it to the marks.

 

so - 1/2 turn with tools or 1.5 turns with tools?

 

maybe it needs to go another....it was hard getting it out, smacking it pretty good but it installs much easier...210,000 miles does that.

 

i don't know how the guts all press together either - maybe it doesn't get tight as quickly as a normal bolt would? if it does then i'm thinking i'm done

 

if i'm 360 off - will i know it immediately or will there be long term damage?



#4 grossgary

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:23 PM

after the half a turn past hand tight - the retaining ring was still above the surface of the front diff and i don't remember that being the case as i cleaned the entire area at the mating surface before removing.   and...a half turn, which wasn't that hard, didn't seem like enough given how much it took to remove...so i went one more turn. i'm going there, i don't think i was off by "two" in counting...we'll see.

 

anyone know if 360 degrees off will be obviously or not?

 

what a goob!? lol



#5 johnceggleston

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:28 PM

with no first hand experience, the initial install instructions include a final step of backing off one side and tightening the other side something in the neighbor hood of 1.5 turns. this move the unit toward one side creating an offset.

 

i would test drive it before you head out on your trip.

if it makes noise adjust it.

and i would take your tools with you so you can adjust it in route if needed.

 

good luck.



#6 Fairtax4me

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:23 PM

Spin the axle stub a few times while tightening the ring to get the diff case to spin and allow the carrier bearings to roll together, just like you would do with a wheel bearing when setting the spindle nut torque.
This should take out any slack between the two sides. Tighten until it won't tighten any more then back off to your mark.

Make sure the trans is in neutral so the whole case spins and not just the spider gears inside it.

#7 grossgary

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:15 PM

okay - so how long and what would my first symptoms be if this thing were off 360 degrees?

would it take thousands of miles to show itself or soon?

 

got it snugged up where i think it's supposed to be, first test drive was no noise and drove normal.  gave it some good throttle up a very steep mountain  and all normal.

 

we'll see.....i'm trying my best to make this car have issues...210,000 with just maintenance and minor benign items.



#8 Idasho

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:33 PM

Too tight should be much more noticeable than too loose.

 

Within reason, a bit loose is always better that too tight.



#9 grossgary

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:06 PM

200 miles no issues except in my head, exhaust...heat shield, road, wind, tire, tractor trailer.....all sounded like a failing front diff. lol

#10 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:09 PM

200 miles no issues except in my head, exhaust...heat shield, road, wind, tire, tractor trailer.....all sounded like a failing front diff. lol

this would be me lol!

#11 Gloyale

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:06 AM

For me it's ussually been 6 full rotations.

 

If it's still moveable by hand, you likely  need another 360.

 

If it gets tight before or just after your mark that's probably it. 

 

you won't be able to go an "extra" 360 if your there already.......you would know when you have to force it that hard.



#12 avk

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:07 AM

According to FSM, rotating the retainer by one tooth changes the backlash by 0.05 mm. So if it were off by a full turn, you would likely notice. That number is for 5EAT, but the retainer threads are likely the same on all front differentials.



#13 grossgary

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 09:24 AM

F

If it's still moveable by hand, you likely  need another 360.

 

If it gets tight before or just after your mark that's probably it. 

 

you won't be able to go an "extra" 360 if your there already.......you would know when you have to force it that hard.

 

what tool do you use Gloyale, i may get it?

 

i'm tempted to try to go one more turn and see if it "bottoms out" so to speak - you mention i won't be able to go an extra 360 so that might determine things for me?

 

2,000+ miles so far.....there is a whine during acceleration/uphill.

 

unfortunately i swapped that axle at the same time to a rebooted Subaru axle with non matching DOJ on that same side.

i've never heard OEM axles make noises. could swap axles to test, maybe i'll do that.



#14 presslab

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 11:46 AM

There should be about one "tooth" of preload from what I recall. It takes a fair amount of force to get that one tooth once it becomes tight.

#15 grossgary

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:05 PM

There should be about one "tooth" of preload from what I recall. It takes a fair amount of force to get that one tooth once it becomes tight.

i was definitely putting a fair amount of force on it for the last bit to get it back to the alignment mark...screw driver worked for a while...was too much, then tapped a few degrees with hammer/chisel.

 

"fair amount"...."few degrees"....i definitely hosed this front diff.  LOL

 

fluid was overfilled, i drained and corrected it today, not sure if that can cause noise but we'll see.



#16 Fairtax4me

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:40 PM

Those screws not only set preload but also change the ring and pinion backlash.
If you tightened the one side more than it was before you took it apart, you may have inadvertently altered the backlash clearance between the gears, by pushing the ring gear closer or further away in relation to the pinion gear.

If the whine is faint, just keep driving it and check the fluid every now and then. It may have just worn a new wear groove into the ring gear, and it may whine for quite a long time even though no harm is being done.

#17 presslab

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:02 PM

Did you grease the o-ring and threads? It makes things much smoother on assembly.

You could always reset the backlash and preload. The procedure is not too complicated, can do it on the car, best to pull the tail housing. That's what I'd do.

#18 Crazyeights

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:09 PM

There should be about one "tooth" of preload from what I recall. It takes a fair amount of force to get that one tooth once it becomes tight.

That sounds right to me too. I just finished a couple of EA 5MTs and that is how they both ended up. Several thousand miles later and they are quiet and working fine.


Edited by Crazyeights, 11 June 2013 - 10:12 PM.


#19 grossgary

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:15 AM

it is faint...i don't have good hearing but i don't hear anything definitive at 60mph or below. i drained the diff and refilled it to the proper level today, it was way overfilled.

side note, the drain plug magnet was perfectly clean, no chunks or debris at all.

 

i have no idea what "one tooth" of preload means.

 

doubt i'll go into setting it from scratch, i have no idea how to do that and if it's off the damage is likely done.



#20 presslab

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:56 PM

The teeth are on the retaining rings, the nubs you use to tighten it. One tooth means the distance from one tooth to the next.

The amount of damage done depends on how far off it is right now.

#21 grossgary

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:11 AM

The teeth are on the retaining rings, the nubs you use to tighten it. One tooth means the distance from one tooth to the next.

The amount of damage done depends on how far off it is right now.

 

i marked it so it's either exactly right or 360 degrees (a whole butt load of teeth) off.

 

had to tap a good bit with a hammer, it was tight.  going another 360 degrees sounds out of the question, but i don't know how much more tight it would have gotten.

 

i'm nearly positive it's not too tight because one less turn and the cap sticks above the transmission case which i cleaned before disassembling and i don't recall it being like that. nor do i recall any others being like that, sticking above the trans case.



#22 ivans imports

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:00 AM

look at the exposed threads of the nut turn in untill they sit were they were prevosly you should be able to see and should take up berring clearance thiss is somthing i never touch leaking or not can of worms do whatever you have to to make shure its in the same spot as before look very close with a good light and you should be able to tell



#23 Gloyale

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 01:04 PM

what tool do you use Gloyale, i may get it?

 

Channel locks opened up wide, with the jaws stuck straight into the notches.

 

I've only needed a punch to loosen them the initial bit.



#24 grossgary

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 05:46 AM

didn't notice noise yesterday after i drained the front diff gear oil to proper level - it was over filled. 

maybe coincidence (it was raining, had A/C on so it was naturally louder anyway) or maybe too full can generate some noise?



#25 johnceggleston

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 04:34 PM

if you are really worried, back it off and see if it is just as hard to tighten this time.

 

having the retaining ring off and working with thte seal, and what all may have shifted things slightly so re-tightening was difficult.

but removing and reinstalling with no other changes or movement may prove to be easier, or just as hard.

 

just a thought.






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