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2003 Forester EJ251 Engine swap into a 2000 OBS

Engine swap EJ25 EJ22

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39 replies to this topic

#1 mrjim

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:37 AM

Hello All,

 

I've heard there shouldn't be any issues with this swap but wanted to make extra sure.

 

The EJ22 engine in my 2000 OBS is shot. (Long stupid story, let the oil get too low)

I've got a 2003 Forester with an EJ251 engine that's got a pretty banged up fender and door from a hit and run.

The OBS is a 5s manual, the Forester's an automatic.

I've done some net searching and from what I hear, the EJ25 should have no issues swaping into the OBS.  Is this correct?

 

Thanks in advance for any and all help.



#2 grossgary

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 12:12 PM

you'd be very surprised how easy it is to swap fenders and doors.  even if you had to pull the fender rail a bit with a come along that doesn't take long either.  i wouldn't rule out fixing the forester, i can generally get most accidents back on the road in an hour or two, not perfectly aligned and all, but panels bolted on and in enough shape to run, drive, and passe inspection - way under what a motor swap takes.

 

but yeah that engine drops right in.

 

to be safe keep the drivers side cam and the crank sprocket *with the vehicle*. 

in other words install the OBS drivers side cam sprocket and crank sprocket onto the Forster engine, just to be sure.

 

1. . there are two different sets of trigger marks and i'm unsure what the differences are (which models had which).  you can either check or just swap to be safe.  all you have to do is look at the back of those two sprockets - the trigger (simple hash marks) are either identical or way different.

 

2.  you'll also have to swap the forester exhaust manifold into the OBS as the EJ25 is dual port and EJ22 is single port.

 

3.  if emissions matter you may want to verify if the engines have EGR or not. EGR into EGR and non-EGR into non-EGR are obviously the same. EGR into non-EGR is easy, just block off the EGR pipe hole.  the only tricky version is installing a non-EGR engine into an EGR vehicle .  that's not a show stopper, there are work arounds for the Phase I 1990's swaps, but might be nice to know ahead of time and check, i haven't heard of someone doing it in a Phase II vehicle. 

 

Last resort you can bolt the EJ22 heads to the EJ25 forester block - that would save you the exhaust swap and EGR concerns.  but then you'd be using oil starved heads i guess....



#3 mrjim

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 12:38 PM

Would you also suggest bringing over the ecu?  I'm guessing no because it's for an automatic but I've also heard some say the ecu is the same for the automatic and manuals and that you want the ecu that was intended for the 2.5 engine so you get the correct fuel injection for the cyl size.

 

Edit: Also, why just the driver's side cam & crank sprocket?


Edited by mrjim, 08 July 2013 - 12:46 PM.


#4 Mugs

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:38 PM

Would you also suggest bringing over the ecu?  I'm guessing no because it's for an automatic but I've also heard some say the ecu is the same for the automatic and manuals and that you want the ecu that was intended for the 2.5 engine so you get the correct fuel injection for the cyl size.

 

Edit: Also, why just the driver's side cam & crank sprocket?

2000-2003 ECU should be the same for your engine and wiring harness. Just keep your ECU in it. Worst case scenario you have to swap your intake onto the EJ25 to get the correct wires harness connectors. But its a straight swap. You will like the EJ25 in it. Maybe if time and cash allows, go for some delta cams...it opens it up a bit, and actually improves MPG rating. 

 

Because the driver side has the hash marks for the cam sensor pick up signal. 


Edited by Mugs, 08 July 2013 - 04:07 PM.


#5 grossgary

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 03:04 PM

leave the ECU, doesn't matter.  you can swap it...it just doesn't matter.

 

crank sensor and cam sensor are only on those two sprockets, there is no sensor or associated trigger marks on the passengers side pulley.

 

wise to install a complete timing kit, very rare to have like new pulleys in there.  ebay kits are only $200 includes all new belt, tensioner, and pulleys.  theimportexperts or gates kits are better than the el-cheapo's that are only like $10 cheaper. 


Edited by grossgary, 08 July 2013 - 03:04 PM.


#6 mrjim

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 03:25 PM

Thanks so much guys, your help is invaluable!



#7 mrjim

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 09:55 AM

I've got a few more questions.

  1. Has anyone here gotten a rebuilt engine from "SSI Subaru specialists"?  Do you recommend or discourage going this route? (and keeping the forester as is or fixing the body damage)
  2. They've got an option for a long block (no pan and oil pump).  Could I use the oil pan & pump, cam & crank pulleys, and water pump from my current engine?  Would this be a bad idea?
  3. They've also got an option that includes the oil pan and pump and cam and crank pulleys. Again, would I be able to use the water pump from my current car? And would it be a bad idea?
  4. (bonus/fun question, just dreaming really) Would an EJ257 engine fit? It's a short block so I'd need to find matching heads, cams, intake, oil pump, oil pan, water pump, harness,
    computer, turbo, exhaust manifold etc... Even if it would fit, I'm guessing this would be a huge and expensive project to take on.  Am I correct?


#8 Gloyale

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:24 AM

1.Don't know them

 

2.Yes, make sure to use a good oil pump and reseal it's backing plate. Sounds like the best option. New water pump with metal gasket

 

3. Also would be fine. new water pump with metal gasket.

 

4.  And yes it would fit with a bit of fabrication to crossmember, but would be expensive and massive undertaking.



#9 mrjim

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 10:46 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but the thing about going this way is that I'd still have to take apart the engine they sent me to swap in the driver's side cam.  Or cam shaft anyways.  Correct?

 

Edit: oh NVM, the above post says sprocket. Those don't come on the long block anyways that I'm aware of.


Edited by mrjim, 17 July 2013 - 10:48 AM.


#10 mrjim

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:00 PM

I'm still considering the EJ257 option... exactly how expensive are we talking?



#11 Fairtax4me

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:42 PM

How much do you want to spend?
You could do a 257 block Frankenmotor (non-turbo) for the cost of some gaskets.

To put a turbo setup in the car you're talking several thousand on parts just to make the engine run, and quite a bit of time swapping wiring harnesses.
Not to mention another $1500-2000 for a transmission that will hold up to the 257 power, and matching ratio rear diff.

#12 mrjim

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:12 PM

I've found the short block for $2100. Think $5-6000 is too low of an estimate for the turbo build?

#13 Fairtax4me

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 02:23 PM

I've seen turbo swap kits (people selling engine, tran,s diff, ECU, harnesses,etc) for about that much. Probably could be done in that range if you can find the rest of what you need for a decent price.

Start searching on RS2.5 and NASIOC for more info on turbo swaps. DI.com might have some info too.

#14 mrjim

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:26 AM

I've decided to go with the EJ251.

 

However, I'm also planning on replacing the flywheel and clutch while I'm at it and I've got some questions regarding that.

  1. From what I can tell, I should be looking for a flywheel to match the EJ251 engine and a clutch to match the stock 2000 OBS transmission.  Is this correct?
  2. Is it worth it to get a stage 1 clutch or just stick with a reputable OEM replacement?  I'm pretty sure I'm going with Exedy for the clutch whether it's OEM or stage 1 unless someone thinks there's a better way to go.
  3. Is it worth looking into a light flywheel or again, just stick with a reputable OEM replacement?  These are the ones I'm looking at:

 

Exedy FF02 lightweight, 1 piece solid chromoly steel               $382.89

Exedy OEM FWSBL02FF                                                         $108.85

SACHS OEM NFW6605                                                              $58.79


Edited by mrjim, 01 August 2013 - 09:27 AM.


#15 Fairtax4me

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:45 AM

In this case I think you should match the flywheel and clutch to the engine.
The release mechanism type is the same for both engines, the input shaft size and spline count are the same for both, but the 251 clutch may have a stronger clamping force, which will help with longevity of the clutch.
There are also some flywheels that have a step machined into the face that may make a different clutch not grip properly.

As for lightweight vs stock, the lightweight flywheel is going to cause shuddering issues when releasing the clutch. Part of the flywheels job is to maintain rotational momentum of the crankshaft during clutch engagement, which helps keep the engine running. If you take away some of that mass, you take away momentum. The engine will be more likely to stall during engagement of the clutch. You will have to slip the clutch more, and use more throttle to prevent that, which will cause the clutch to wear faster. It will also lead to hot spotting on the flywheel and pressure plate surfaces, which will cause shuddering when engaging the clutch.

#16 mrjim

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:49 AM

Okay, great.  Sounds like OEM flywheel is the way to go then thanks! 

 

How about stage 1 vs OEM clutch?

 

Edit: I've heard some say I should seriously look at replacing the fuel pump too.  What's your opinion on this?


Edited by mrjim, 01 August 2013 - 09:59 AM.


#17 Fairtax4me

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:59 AM

As long as the upgraded clutch is not a multi-puck design (the disc has several small "pucks" that look like brake pads with gaps between them) then it should be fine. Usually the only difference between OEM and a stage 1 upgrade is a higher clamping force. The multi-puck clutches are not designed for street use and make normal driving very difficult, and will wear out faster when used for street driving.

#18 mrjim

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:56 PM

From the looks of things the disk is very similar to the OEM one they sell.  However, I do see a number of small sections with gaps between them... I think most clutches I've seen look similar to this though. 

http://www.exedyusa....e.jpg?src=15801

 

The 3 portions of their stage 2 look more like brake pads to me though.  Is this what you're talking about?:

http://www.exedyusa..../stage2_250.jpg

 

Also, in regards to the fuel pump, I think I'd be more inclined to replace the fuel filter (to keep any old crud from passing through into the new engine) but I guess I don't really see why I'd replace the fuel pump if it was working fine.  Thoughts?


Edited by mrjim, 01 August 2013 - 06:04 PM.


#19 Fairtax4me

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:31 PM

If you were going to turbo it, yes I'd get a higher volume fuel pump, but just to swap from a 2.2 to a 2.5 I wouldn't bother. The original pump will work just fine.

Yes, the stage 1 clutch should work fine. Usually the only major difference with those is a higher clamping force, which holds up to a bit more power without slipping. There may be a difference in friction material on the disc, but generally it has the same design as a stock clutch disc. Kinda looks like a sun flower, with about 20 small pads with a small gap between them. The gap helps bring cool air between the pads to cool the disc, flywheel, and pressure plate, and allows friction material that gets shaved off to be thrown away from the friction surfaces.

The stage 2 clutch is the type you want to avoid for street driving.

#20 mrjim

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:04 PM

Great, thanks for the help! I appreciate it. I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get further into this.  ^_^



#21 mrjim

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:54 AM

Just an update:

 

The EJ22 engine is out.  

The new Sachs OEM flywheel and Exedy stage 1 clutch arrived.

The re-manufactured EJ25 engine is scheduled to ship today.  I'm guessing it'll arrive next week.



#22 ivans imports

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:57 AM

keep all managment matched to car cam gears crank gear intake ect and should be no problems



#23 mrjim

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 08:23 AM

Update:

 

I found out that the old engine may be fine.  The lower driver's side idler had blown its bearings and was grinding against a bolt above it (the noise we heard when trying to start the engine at the mechanic's shop).  This caused the timing on the passenger side to be out by as much as 180 degrees it looks like.  I am sure of this though: the car was not driven or even run at all really after the idler totally gave out (because it happened at the shop).  I'm also sure the timing didn't get off until it blew.  That means the shop has only tried to start it a couple times since the timing has been off.  I'm thinking this is little enough that the piston rods and valves should be okay.  Thoughts?

 

The unfortunate thing is that I didn't get the old engine torn down enough to find this out until I had already bought the new engine, flywheel and clutch. :rolleyes:


Edited by mrjim, 26 August 2013 - 08:24 AM.


#24 ivans imports

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:34 AM

most likly bent valves they like to get them comp test when retimed



#25 Fairtax4me

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 04:18 PM

If they tried to start it at all with the timing being off the valves are bent. Engine speed or driving vs not driving make no difference. You can turn an engine by hand and bend valves if its out of time. Only takes one slip to bend valves.





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