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Suspension/Coils for Loyale Alternatives?

Loyale Suspension EA82 Struts Coils Springs

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#1 GlenSz

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:34 PM

having serious regrets about messing around w/ my Loyale, "Joan Crawlins" after i finally had her in the best shape she's been in since i got her last Winter in Penn. 

 

everything was great as stock, but then i put in a 2" inch lift to gain clearance over sand in btwn the tracks on a rutted out access road to the beach. that messed up the camber of the front wheels something awful (pics here: http://s406.photobuc...nd 15 inch Pugs)

 

and after tracking down some 15" alloy pugs in a junkyard in Pennsylvania and ordering lugs from Dan in Sacramento, i thought that would help the camber issue, but it didn't solve nearly enough for daily driving. 

 

so pulled the lift kit out, but kept the pugs on and had to cut a bunch of the wells out cause i was getting lots of rubbing since my suspension was in bad shape. 

 

put in new struts in the front which helped, gonna put in struts in the back in the next couple days, but  having no luck finding coils for the front. 

 

CAN I USE COILS FOR ANOTHER SUBARU that are easily available? like a legacy? if so, what should i get?

 

also, now my camber is ok in the front, i'm getting positive camber in the back, which i can only guess was as a result of putting in and taking out the lift in the back. 

 

once i put in new struts in the back and hopefully coils in the front, and then get everything aligned professionally, will my camber issues be solved, theoretically? 

 

just ruing my decision to have changed anything at this point, but all's not lost by along shot and if i can get the suspension finished and the alignment solves the camber, i'll be happy to have the Pugs on rather than the stock 13"s. 

 

here's a look at where i'm at now: http://s406.photobuc...e Camber Issues

 

@175eya @CoyotePaws @Mechanical_Misfit

 

thanks for the help folks, as always, i'm eternally grateful for the advice and support.

 

-Glen



#2 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:15 PM

Maybe you can find some Useful Ideas on This Writeup:

 

~►  http://www.ultimates...ils-on-loyales/

 

Kind Regards.



#3 GlenSz

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:54 PM

Maybe you can find some Useful Ideas on This Writeup:

 

~►  http://www.ultimates...ils-on-loyales/

 

Kind Regards.

wow, that's some intense research. i guess the 94 tempo's coil springs would be too stiff if i bought them brand new if i'm just looking for regular street-driving ones, not intended for heavy off-roading. 



#4 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:18 PM

Yes, you're Right.

 

My "BumbleBeast" rides also with 15" wheels but only 25" tires which are Ideal for Mixed Driving.

 

It has a 2" SJR Lift + Tempo coils on the Front, and my own 2" lift on the Rear (As described on the Writeup) the Ride is Stiff for a Family Wagon but it can Handle the Huge Loads I need to move + 5 people on our Family "Mountain Adventure" Trips, offroading on Weekends without issues, nor tire rubbings; while it handles awesome as Daily Driver during Week Days.

 

Kind Regards.



#5 AWD J3wman

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:08 PM

I got a GL-10 AWD and i used ebay coilover sleeves for a CRX, they fit but the back end all the way down is still way too high im gonna try a shorter strut, i got 3" to go before i tuck and thats my goal.



#6 jono

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 04:37 PM

FWD or 4WD Loyale ? Do you US guys actually have Loyale badges on the bodywork ? We don't down south.

 

2WD rear ends are different to 4WDs and would get different attention.

 

Sedans don't have suspension bump stops like the wagons do - other than the ones fitted to  the rear shock shaft, crumble and disintergrate over the years. I found factory sedan rear shocks to have 9.5mm spring wire diameter, RX 4WD sedan 10.5mm and wagons 11 or 11.5mm

 

4WD wagon springs in a 4WD sedan rear were too high, too bouncy, threw away my 9.5 FWD rear coils before I got a chance to try as at the time was hoping to lower my rear of 4WD sedan, looked at the spring and thought it to be the same (did not measure wire thickness at the time :( )

 

I am now content with factory height of the RX spring in the rear. You can play with the different coil seat to bottom bolt hole differences to get different heights and ride. Three different ones came on EA82 models



#7 GlenSz

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:12 PM

FWD or 4WD Loyale ? Do you US guys actually have Loyale badges on the bodywork ? We don't down south.

 

2WD rear ends are different to 4WDs and would get different attention.

 

Sedans don't have suspension bump stops like the wagons do - other than the ones fitted to  the rear shock shaft, crumble and disintergrate over the years. I found factory sedan rear shocks to have 9.5mm spring wire diameter, RX 4WD sedan 10.5mm and wagons 11 or 11.5mm

 

4WD wagon springs in a 4WD sedan rear were too high, too bouncy, threw away my 9.5 FWD rear coils before I got a chance to try as at the time was hoping to lower my rear of 4WD sedan, looked at the spring and thought it to be the same (did not measure wire thickness at the time :( )

 

I am now content with factory height of the RX spring in the rear. You can play with the different coil seat to bottom bolt hole differences to get different heights and ride. Three different ones came on EA82 models

 

My Loyale is a 4WD / 3AT. 



#8 GlenSz

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:12 PM

Yes, you're Right.

 

My "BumbleBeast" rides also with 15" wheels but only 25" tires which are Ideal for Mixed Driving.

 

It has a 2" SJR Lift + Tempo coils on the Front, and my own 2" lift on the Rear (As described on the Writeup) the Ride is Stiff for a Family Wagon but it can Handle the Huge Loads I need to move + 5 people on our Family "Mountain Adventure" Trips, offroading on Weekends without issues, nor tire rubbings; while it handles awesome as Daily Driver during Week Days.

 

Kind Regards.

 

so after a little closer reading of your post (compliments, btw, on your really thorough research, testing, documentation and sharing, you're a real asset to our subie community!) i figured i'd give the Napa coils a shot, cause it was the MOOG CC854 and especially the progressive CC856 coils that would be too stiff, if they were brand new, not necessarily the napa version. also, there's a napa around the corner from my apt. and they said they could get them in in a day or so and they were only $60 & change for the front pair, plus shipping. the MOOG versions were like $120, even though they were available immediately. in the meantime, i live near a bunch of junkyards and the NYC mecca of yards, Willet's Point, which i'm sure i could find them at, so if so, i'll probably get the whole GEN2 94'Tempo front strut assembly (probably for about $50 total for both, depending on how much i feel i searching and bargaining) and use the used coils off them, as you did. 

 

then after that, i'll finally be ready for a proper alignment, which i hope solves my dissimilar front and rear wheel camber issues. 

 

is there some sort of adjustment bolt or something i can try to do on my own first? i just did the rear struts and it didn't help it any. i thought maybe the new strut w/ an increased height would push down the wheel and axle and therefore have the top of the wheel inside the well stick out a little bit further. but as it sits now, the top of the tire doesn't even extend past the edge at the top of the well. 

 

could some of this positive camber be ok if it's just on the back wheels? the front are perfectly straight now. 

 

thanks again for the suggestions and advice. 

 

-Glen



#9 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:37 PM

Dear Glen, 

 

Many thanks for your Kind words, which are Highly appreciated.  :D 

 

 

...is there some sort of adjustment bolt or something i can try to do on my own first? i just did the rear struts and it didn't help it any. i thought maybe the new strut w/ an increased height would push down the wheel and axle and therefore have the top of the wheel inside the well stick out a little bit further. but as it sits now, the top of the tire doesn't even extend past the edge at the top of the well. ...

 

 

 

Follow the Rear Alignment Procedures:

 

Rearalignment.jpg

 

Kind Regards.


Edited by Loyale 2.7 Turbo, 15 October 2013 - 09:38 PM.


#10 GlenSz

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:56 AM

Dear Glen, 

 

Many thanks for your Kind words, which are Highly appreciated.  :D 

 

 

 

 

 

Follow the Rear Alignment Procedures:

 

Rearalignment.jpg

 

Kind Regards.

 

Wow! amazing, this is very very helpful, i'm really excited you could share this. like i said, you're a real value to the USMB. 

 

just one question: this says, "Loyale 2.7 Turbo" on the bottom of the diagram. will this be the same for my '94 Loyale 4WD (3AT) Wagon? 

 

and is it from the Haynes maintenance & repair manual? 

 

-g


Edited by GlenSz, 16 October 2013 - 12:04 PM.


#11 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:01 PM

Once again, thank you for your Kind Words.

 

... just one question: this says, "Loyale 2.7 Turbo" on the bottom of the diagram. will this be the same for my '94 Loyale 4WD (3AT) Wagon? ...

 

... :D ...  I always sign the Photos I Upload, and despite that my Name is JesZeK, "Loyale 2.7 Turbo" is my Screen Name here in USMB and some other Automotive Forums, (that user name was due to a Project I had that lasted ten years, of building a 2.7 Subaru wagon -now dead-, no such animal came factory like that) so it was my Signature only.

 

That procedures are intended for the Rear suspension of the Gen III Subaru Leone, which is also known as the "EA82" or Loyale...and some other names... Long story Short, if your car is the one on your avatar, yes, that procedures will work; just be Careful following the instructions ... maybe is good Idea to print them and show them to the Alignment Shop, I hope that they will be able to do such adjustments.

 

Good Luck,

Kind Regards.



#12 jono

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:12 PM

Wow ! Haynes manuals must be better than I thought ;) That detail looks as good as a factory manual !



#13 El Presidente

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:00 PM

Your 2" lift blocks were in backwards, that's why you had bad camber. If you put them back in correctly, you'd be just fine daily driving it. What wheels you run willn't have any affect on the camber either. The lift doesn't have anything to do with camber in the back and is likely from bent trailing arms...Note how the instructions for adjusting the camber involve a long piece of wood as a lever..(aka bending it back). As far as taking it to a shop to align it, don't do it, its a huge waste of money. All the shop will adjust is the front toe(and thats it in the front!), which isn't hard to do yourself, and tell you to get new trailing arms in the rear, because very very few shops will attempt to adjust/bend the rear trailing arms... If you take it to a shop with the lift in, they'll just tell you to take it out because its in backwards..if they'll even touch it with a lift on it for legal reasons.

 

The big problem with lifting the front with springs in an ea82 is that you will lose a lot of down travel, not to mention you will have bad positive camber from it(again). If you want to keep the tires out of the fenders, do it right with blocks. You really only need tempo springs if you have winches and bumpers up front...You dont even need bigger springs for an EJ, just get new stock ones.

 

 

 

Josh



#14 GlenSz

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:15 AM

Your 2" lift blocks were in backwards, that's why you had bad camber. If you put them back in correctly, you'd be just fine daily driving it. What wheels you run willn't have any affect on the camber either. The lift doesn't have anything to do with camber in the back and is likely from bent trailing arms...Note how the instructions for adjusting the camber involve a long piece of wood as a lever..(aka bending it back). As far as taking it to a shop to align it, don't do it, its a huge waste of money. All the shop will adjust is the front toe(and thats it in the front!), which isn't hard to do yourself, and tell you to get new trailing arms in the rear, because very very few shops will attempt to adjust/bend the rear trailing arms... If you take it to a shop with the lift in, they'll just tell you to take it out because its in backwards..if they'll even touch it with a lift on it for legal reasons.

 

The big problem with lifting the front with springs in an ea82 is that you will lose a lot of down travel, not to mention you will have bad positive camber from it(again). If you want to keep the tires out of the fenders, do it right with blocks. You really only need tempo springs if you have winches and bumpers up front...You dont even need bigger springs for an EJ, just get new stock ones.

 

 

 

Josh

 

hey Josh, 

 

Thanks for the info. I already took out the lift kit cause the camber on the front was killing my tires and axels. ripped the passenger-side boot within the first day. 

 

The kit i ordered used blocks for the front. i just needed info about the coils, cause after taking out the kit and leaving on the 15" pugs and 205/75 tires, i was getting tons of rubbing cause my suspension in front especially, but all around anyway, was in pretty bad shape, before putting in the kit to begin with, so i did the struts in the front and back, but couldn't find the coils for the front, so went looking for alternatives. running the shotty driver-side strut in front for so long caused the coil to weaken a lot, so that made the rubbing particularly bad on that side. 

 

i'm gonna probably bring it back to the used tire place and try to swap them out for 205/70's, just to eliminate some of the rub cause now that it's settling, the rubbing is worse, even after cutting out a significant part of the wells. 

 

again, really wish i could go back to before having tried to put in the lift, cause the she was running great w/ the stock 13's and still had the mudflaps and entire well. but after going outta my way to get the pugs and matching lugs from Dan in Sacramento (costing more than the rims themselves from the boneyard i got them from, thanks again @rrgrr) i want to leave them on, even if it means redoing my suspension, which needed to be done eventually anyway. 

 

also wish i could have the lift in there w/ out the camber issues, despite my daily-driving needs, cause it would definitely eliminate all the rubbing issues i have now w/ the bigger wheels. 

 

guess it's the price i pay for attempting these type of mods. 

 

also still can't wrap my head around why the front blocks, if switched, wouldn't create the same camber issues. or why they need to be the opposite of the way they were. it just looks like they'd be pushing down the springs even further if they went in the way everyone is saying they should be put in, which would make the camber problem worse. 

 

should i just get a jacked up jeep? hahah, definitely JUST KIDDING! would never want and SUV over my subie  :P

 

-g



#15 bratman18

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:07 PM

You should take pics of the lift blocks and we can tell you how they shohld have gone. Unless they weren't camber correct and they really did just drop everything straight down.

#16 GlenSz

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:18 PM

You should take pics of the lift blocks and we can tell you how they shohld have gone. Unless they weren't camber correct and they really did just drop everything straight down.

here's a link to some pics of the blocks and how they were installed: http://s406.photobuc...nd 15 inch Pugs

 

i'm guessing they were camber correct and just dropped everything straight down, which would account for why the wheels pushed in at the bottoms. 



#17 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:58 PM

Your Front Strut Blocks,

(let me post your Photo here, from the link you gave)

 

IMG_20130927_151338_659_zps4144613a.jpg

 

 

Is hard to be 100% Sure with a Photo, but Seems like they have some Degree / Difference between the Alignment of the Upper Holes and the Lower Holes, and thus means that they're intended to be Mounted in certain position to allow a Camber Correction, so if you mounted them Backwards, the Camber goes to the Wrong side.

 

If that's true, it Explains the Camber issues you had.

 

Why don't you Try to mount them in the Other direction?

 

Kind regards.


Edited by Loyale 2.7 Turbo, 18 October 2013 - 02:59 PM.


#18 GlenSz

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:31 PM

Your Front Strut Blocks,

(let me post your Photo here, from the link you gave)

 

IMG_20130927_151338_659_zps4144613a.jpg

 

 

Is hard to be 100% Sure with a Photo, but Seems like they have some Degree / Difference between the Alignment of the Upper Holes and the Lower Holes, and thus means that they're intended to be Mounted in certain position to allow a Camber Correction, so if you mounted them Backwards, the Camber goes to the Wrong side.

 

If that's true, it Explains the Camber issues you had.

 

Why don't you Try to mount them in the Other direction?

 

Kind regards.

 

mounting them involved a lot of tools i didn't have, like to squeeze them in btwn the top of the coil and strut, so i had to bring them to my mechanic who helped, but still charged me. so reversing them, after taking them out, just to possibly find out the camber will still be off seems like a gamble. 

 

definitely a degree difference btwn the top and bottom holes. the guy i bought the kit from said he forgot to make them "left" & "right" which means one side was supposed to go one way, and same for the other. 

 

i'm having difficulty figuring out how mounting them differently would allow for camber correction though. 

 

sorry, just showing my lack of experience here. 

 

thanks for your repeated insight, it's very much appreciated. 

 

-glen



#19 bratman18

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:31 PM

You mounted them between the coil and the strut?? They are supposed to be bolted to the top of the strut mount, and then is bolted into the car. And this can be done with very simple hand tools. They are definitely built to be put in only one way, and when installed that way, your camber should be pretty much dead on, or as close as it ever was before the lift.



#20 bratman18

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:31 PM

You need to mount them so that the top of the strut assemble, tilts IN towards the center of the car.



#21 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:47 PM

... to squeeze them in btwn the top of the coil and strut ...

 

EpicFacePalm.gif



#22 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:51 PM

Sorry, but I had to facepalm, if the Blocks really were installed as you stated, between the Coil's top and the Strut.  

 

Bratman 18 already wrote how they should be installed, between the Subaru Body and the top of the Strut.

 

Let me Search a Photo for you...



#23 GlenSz

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:57 PM

You mounted them between the coil and the strut?? They are supposed to be bolted to the top of the strut mount, and then is bolted into the car. And this can be done with very simple hand tools. They are definitely built to be put in only one way, and when installed that way, your camber should be pretty much dead on, or as close as it ever was before the lift.

 

 

Sorry, but I had to facepalm, if the Blocks really were installed as you stated, between the Coil's top and the Strut.  

 

Bratman 18 already wrote how they should be installed, between the Subaru Body and the top of the Strut.

 

Let me Search a Photo for you...

 

 

haha, sorry guys, wrote that wrong, i'm pretty green, but not that retarded. 

 

they were at the top of the strut and coil, bolted in to the body w/ everything underneath. 

 

sorry, was unclear. 

 

but look how there were mounted in the photo, tops pointed in towards the middle, like this:    //  \\



#24 GlenSz

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:58 PM

IMG_20130927_152339_334_zpsa4b89357.jpg


Edited by GlenSz, 18 October 2013 - 07:59 PM.


#25 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:11 PM

Where did you obtained those Blocks? ... Those looks like 3"

 

Did they came with the Engine's Crossmember Spacers?

 

Your Axles will wear ~ 10X faster if you do not Drop the Cross member.

 

In ~► THIS Thread, are many Photos of a Lift Kit Install, maybe you could find them Useful.

 

Kind Regards.


Edited by Loyale 2.7 Turbo, 18 October 2013 - 08:13 PM.






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