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2.2 swap, electrical issues


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20 replies to this topic

#1 mikeanderso

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Posted 01 May 2004 - 11:38 PM

hello everyone,

I'm having some electrical issues, and I'm hoping y'all can help.

Background: car is a '98 legacy wagon. head gaskets on 2.5 motor went at 109,000. Rather than replace the gaskets, and have them go again in 60K, I decided to put in a 2.2. Called CCR, and ordered a 2.2 from a '95. The motor originally came with an impreza manifold, and wiring harness, so I had to deal with those issues, if anybody's interested with that story, the post is here:

http://www.ultimates...40&goto=newpost

Anyway, CCR sent me a '95 legacy 2.2 manifold, and got it all bolted on today. As far as parts, and electrical connectors for, the '95 2.2 is a straight out swap with the 2.5. I checked the wiring diagrams, and everything goes back into the ECM the same way.

Okay, so new motor is in, and everything is connected up. Refilled radiator, power steering pump, and dumped in 4.5 quarts of oil into the new engine. Dumped a gallon or so of gas in the gas tank, connected the battery, and then unplugged the coil so that I could crank the motor using the starter to run the oil pump, water pump, and steering pump without ignition. crank, crank , crank. Reconnected the coil, and tried to start. Won't. Here's some strange things that are going on. I don't have a check engine light on, so I think all the sensors are hooked up right.

Here's the wierd part. I turned the key to lock position and removed the key, but the following dash indicator lights stayed on: ABS, oil pressure. With the key out, I can still turn on headlights, and the interior vent fan. That shouldn't be happening. It's like the key is in, and in acc position, but the key is out. Hmm. Also, the temperature gauge was pegged on H, so the radiator fans triggered on. If I cycled the key between lock and acc, I could get them to switch off. I unhooked the - terminal on the battery so it doesn't drain all night long.

So, in summary, here's what I've got:

2.2 in a 2.5 car.
wiring all lines up and double checked. No check engine light.
motor will not start.
When key is removed, I've still got electricity everywhere.?

Any ideas? This one is weird, and I'll take any suggestions that are out there.

Thanks!

Mike A.

#2 lmdew

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 07:57 AM

I was thinking about doing the same swap, but after all of your issues I think I'll stay with the 2.5 Good Luck!


Sounds like the relay that puts power to the ign side of the system might be stuck closed, always hot. You might pull it and put a meter across the contacts. It should be under the dash, I believe.

#3 avk

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 10:45 AM

Mike: the oil pressure switch connects the warning light directly to the ground, so if it's on, there must be 12V at the cluster and accessory circuits. Are you positive the wiring matches pin-by-pin? Is the new engine harness grounded where it's supposed to? That's all I can come up with right now.

#4 Cougar

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 12:26 PM

I agree with IMDUE about the ignition power relay being on somehow. It may be stuck in the closed position but I suspicion that your new wiring is turning the relay on somehow. To prove it is the relay supplying power to these things simply pull the relay from the socket and see if the systems turn off then. If they do go off then you need to see what is turning the relay on, if it is ok and not stuck. If the systems stay on, then the power is coming from someplace else and you will have to start looking for other possible sources. You are going to need a wiring diagram to trace this and hopefully you already have one doing this kind of job.

If the power goes off with the removal of the rely then I would make sure the ignition switch is not causing this somehow. I can't think of any line "from" the switch that should be hot while in the off position. Only the hot lead "to" the switch. Pulling fuselinks may help pin the area down also.

#5 avk

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 04:16 PM

The fan relay circuit is not switched by the ignition relay, and the fan has power, so there has to be something more to the problem.

#6 mikeanderso

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 04:44 PM

Thanks for the replies everybody, I think cougar has a point, I can track which relays have power and such to the ends of the harness, but the trick is to figure out what is different now with the new engine that wasn't there before. Once you figure out what's different, you can track through the wiring diagram how that difference would cause the things I'm describing. Work the cause, not the symptoms. Problem is, what's the problem?

First of all, the 2.5 ECM and the 2.2 ECM are different. The pinouts for the wires coming from the firewall harness into the ECM are different on the two wiring diagrams. What is the same between the two harnesses is the wiring that goes from the engine harness to the three connectors that connect the engine harness to the firewalll harness. For example,for the 2.2, the engine coolant temperature sensor connects through pin #5 of the engine to firewall connector E2. This wire from the firewall then connects into pin 29 of the ECM.
On the 2.5, engine coolant temperature sensor connects again through pin #5 of engine to firewall connector E2. the wire from the firewall then connects to pin 22 of the ECM.
Since I have not changed any wiring downstream from the engine, the wires from the engine all go through the same three electrical connectors (E1,E2,and E3) in the exact same way. Once through those connectors, things get different between the two cars, but from the engine it is the same. That is why I believe the swap should work. As far as the ECM knows, it is still getting the same signals from the same sensors.

now, for the nitty gritty details. I did clip the 2.2 wiring harness knock sensor wire to swap electrical connectors so I could re-use the knock sensor from my 2.5 motor. they both connect through one wire, but use different shaped connectors. Wires were clipped, joined with solderless crimp connectors, soldered anyway, then insulated with shrink wrap. The connections are solid, I'm sure of that. Also, the wires from the crankshaft position sensor got smashed under the intake manifold, and i had to do the same drill on those wires. I could believe that there will be a slight change in the resisitance of those wires due to my soldering. I dont' think that could be a source of my problems, but I figure now is the time to confess all my sins and get all the info out there :-)

Right now, my area of study is the power supply routing section of the '98 wiring diagram. Got to figure out how current from the battery is getting to the headlights, fans, etc. when the key is in my pocket.

This post kind of turned into a big ramble. Thanks for the suggestions, keep them coming.

Mike A.

#7 Cougar

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 09:38 PM

To AVK- I think power for the fans is always available even with the ignition off so it can cool the radiator when needed, even while the engine is off. Something is causing the gauge to read incorrectly though.

To Mikeanderso- Something I missed on the first post is when you said 'If I cycled the key between lock and acc, I could get them to switch off'. This means that there is a problem with the ignition switch somehow. When it is in the off position it is still suppling power to the ignition. You may have a internally shorted switch.

#8 avk

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 09:54 PM

Cougar: I meant the blower fan, if Mike also mentioned the cooling fan I didn't catch that.

#9 Cougar

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 10:19 PM

To AVK- Well, after reading the original post again it looks like he mentions both of them. It seems to me that the ignition switch has a problem somehow since he states that the accessories will turn off while the switch is in between positions. If power was being supplied from somewhere else then the switch position would not matter, as I see it.

#10 mikeanderso

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 10:56 PM

To clarify:

The cooling fans (on the radiator) would switch on when the key was in the off position. that's because the temp gauge was pegged on high. Cougar is right, in that the fans can run independant of key position. To get the fans to turn off, I would move the key to accessory position, and they would switch off. When I move the key back to off position, temperature gauge continues to read high, ABS, and oil pressure lights remain on. It was then that I tried the cooling (internal/heater) fans to see what was working and they turned on. Interestingly enough, the radio would not turn on with the key in the off position, while the fans would.

I cannot confirm or deny if the accessories turn off when the key is between positions. If it does, then it would imply that there is something wrong with the ignition switch, as mentioned by cougar. If it does not, it would imply that power is getting to the accessories independant of the ignition switch, by some other route. That would be bad.

I'm taking a day off work tomorrow to try and get the car running. I will be posting my progress, and questions as the day wears on, i'm sure. I will see if the accessories work when the key is between positions, and take a more accurate accounting of what I can and cannot turn on when the key is in off position. That might help me pinpoint where the problem is. I'm also going to call CCR to see if Rick or emily have ever run into something like this before.

Thanks everyone, you will be hearing alot from me tomorrow!

Mike A.

#11 Cougar

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 02:58 AM

From your last post Mike it almost sounds like the wires for the 'accessory' and 'off' positions on the ignition switch are reversed instead of the switch being shorted. It would be interresting to know what happens when the key is in the 'on' position.

Another thing to check is the temperature sensor wire. I think the sensor has a lower resistance the hotter the coolant gets. Try removing the wire from the sensor and see if the gauge indication goes down. If it dosen't change, the lead may be shorted to ground somehow or the wire to the gauge is connected to a different sensor.

You stated "the radio would not turn on with the key in the off position, while the fans would", do you mean the cooling fans and the blower motor? The part about the radio is puzzleing.

#12 avk

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 02:04 PM

When looking at the schematics, make sure '98 and '95 alternators are wired the same way (even if you know the '95 plug matches the '98 alt.). You didn't mention the charge warning light coming on. This may be one of the simpler circuits to check.

#13 mikeanderso

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 12:02 AM

Hi everyone,

I said I would post as the day went on with any questions I had. No news, is good news, right?

I'm almost ashamed to admit it, but in my rush to get everything connected saturday, I neglected to connect the ground wire onto the intake manifold. Did that, and a couple of other little things, and she fired right up. Runs great.

I took it for a drive thie evening, clutch pedal was a bit soft, so I had my neighbor help me replace the clutch fluid. Much nicer now. The check engine light came on, and stayed on so now I need to go to a shop and get hooked up to a computer to diagnose why it's on. I've also got an exhaust leak somewhere, i think as the engine sounds a bit loud, expecially when you let off the throttle, and the slight shimmy that was in the rear end before I replaced the engine, well it's still there. I was hoping that just letting it sit in the driveway would make it go away ;-)

So, in summary, the 2.2 swap into a 2.5 car DOES WORK! Here are the gems of wisdom I would pass on to anyone that wants to do it:

1. Specify that you want a '95 engine. From what I understand, 95 heads are one year only as they have EGR. You need EGR in order to use the 2.5 ECM. The folks at CCR could tell you more about that than I could...
2. SPECIFY THAT YOU WANT A LEGACY 2.2 MANIFOLD ON THE MOTOR. I have no idea if the impreza and legacy 2.2 manifolds are the same, but I can tell you authoritatively that the 1.8 and 2.2 manifolds are much different. Having the wrong parts on this motor cost me an incredible amount of time to rectify. I had to learn the hard way that wiring, and plumbing of air lines into the various sensors on the manifold are different. The EGR pipe is a different length for imprezas and legacies. Found that out last saturday. All of my problems could have been eliminated if I would have had a legacy manifold on the car in the first place.
3. You will need a charcoal canister. the 2.5 cars did not come with them, and the 2.2 manifolds are plumbed for one. You will need to also fab a mounting bracket for it, although the stock subaru one might work if you can get your hands on one, I didn't try it.
4. When you get the motor rebuilt, get the wiring harness for the 2.2 motor, and the sensors that came on that engine. Your core 2.5 harness will not swap straight across with the new 2.2.

I'll keep everyone posted as to what the check engine light holds for me. Maybe there's just a bad connection somewhere.

Thanks to everyone for their help. I'm a little embarassed that the solution was as simple as it was, but I'm not ashamed to admit it when I make a stupid mistake.

Mike A.

#14 avk

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 12:35 AM

Good to hear it all worked out!
2.2l engines had EGR w. AT drivetrain only, on 1995-99 models. The original charcoal canister is underneath the car, behind the right rear wheel and you might need to plumb it in if you want to eliminate the CEL: A '98 ECU unlike '95 has "enhanced evaporation emissions diagnostics" (codes P044x) and uses a sensor or two attached to that canister.

#15 Cougar

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 02:42 AM

Glad you go it going Mike. Thanks for the feedback. Hope the rest is easy to complete.

#16 mikeanderso

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 09:45 AM

Lots of good info there avk.

I talked to the counter parts guy about the charcoal canister, and I decided that since the engine was designed to have one in the front, I might as well put one in.

What is a CEL?

I'm going to try to get into a shop today after work and get the check engine light diagnosed. While there, i'll see if I can get them to put the car up on the lift to check what is causing the shimmy in the rear end. It feels like a rubber bushing somewhere in the rear has gone out so things are loose and wobbly.

Bit, by bit...

Mike A.

#17 avk

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 11:28 AM

Mike: CEL is the "Check Engine" light.

#18 mikeanderso

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Posted 06 May 2004 - 11:43 PM

Hello everyone,

This will probably be my last post in this thread, and that is a good thing. Went to a shop and had the CEL (thanks avk) checked, it was the knock sensor. Turns out I also had an exhaust leak, I didn't get the bolts connecting the exhaust manifold to the cat converter section of the muffler pipe on tight enough. I went home, dropped the manifold, and tightened them up. Unhooked the battery to reset the CEL, and everything is fine. Lot's quieter too ;-) Next item was the shimmy in the rear end. Got the car up on the lift, and the cords are showing on the right rear tire. I was hoping to get these tires to last until inspection time in august, but time for a new set of tires. Replaced the fluid in the clutch the other night, the car drives, and it is nice. My observations about the 2.2:

It doesn't have the bottom end torque that the 2.5 has. Once you get the 2.2 up above 3.5k, it pulls just as well as the 2.5 though. It's not quite as quick from a dead start, so adjust left turn driving habits accordingly.

5th gear seems to be very low for this engine. I know the tranny was probably designed to mate up with a 2.5, 5th is great for level driving on the freeway, but if there's any hint of a hill, or passing requires a shift down to fourth. Related to the bottom end torque issue.

All in all, I'm pleased with the motor. I'm not interested in going fast, just going forever. Now, hopefully this engine does that for me.

Thanks for everybody's help, on an unrelated note, anyone know if the lightbulb inside the radio that backlights the clock/station display can be replaced?

Mike A.

#19 Tiny Clark

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Posted 07 May 2004 - 12:16 AM

Yer lucky ya got a manual. Top gear (4th or OD, whatever ya wanna call it) of the Automatic is the HDG (hill deceleration gear).

#20 avk

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Posted 07 May 2004 - 08:10 AM

Mike: I thought the light was on because of the carbon canister, but actually you never disconnected the old one, though I'm not sure what happened to the purge hose. Looks like you got two canisters now, both working.

#21 mikeanderso

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Posted 08 May 2004 - 10:38 PM

actually, the light hasn't cleared yet, it came on again. I unhooked the battery for 30 seconds, thinking that should clear it, right?

When I had the light checked at the shop, it was the knock sensor. However, I had an exhaust leak that might have been causing the CEL to come on. Now, the leak is fixed and the light is still on. I did have to splice some wiring to hook up my '98 knock sensor to fit with the '95 harness, so I'm hoping it's not that. I'll get the light checked again on monday, maybe.

Mike A.




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