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debate at school


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#1 The Scooby

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 12:00 PM

ok i got a question, people are saying subaru is orignally from down under, while others are sayin its a jap car, which is it, reason it came up is we are going though AWD systems, and my car was bought up.

and im not sure, trust me im imbarassed about not knowing.

Thanks,
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#2 ShawnW

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 12:04 PM

Subaru is part of Fuji Heavy Industries from Japan. Google it.

#3 archemitis

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 12:07 PM

and fuji heavy was involved in making the zero, or some ww2 japanese fighter plane.

#4 northguy

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 12:11 PM

The Japaneese characters in the back of the owner's manual shuld be a big clue. If there were the words "mate, barby, or g'day" there might be room for argument.:lol:

#5 The Scooby

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 12:20 PM

The Japaneese characters in the back of the owner's manual shuld be a big clue. If there were the words "mate, barby, or g'day" there might be room for argument.:lol:


lol, very true, i just spazed i should have thought about it when just hearing the name of the hitachi carb. dam its a monday.

#6 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 12:25 PM

The origin's of the AWD and 4WD, and the Subaru flat 4 engine still used today are actually rip-off's of what VW did many years ago. The rod-shifted, transaxle and flat 4 is essencially a VW beetle setup with the differential reversed, and water cooling added. Bugaru tells me that the 4WD thing started with people machining into the end of the VW transaxle, and making 4WD Bug's! Audi capitolized on this in the very early 80's (80, 81) with the quattro AWD system used in their rally car's of the day.

But yes - Subaru is Japanese in origin. But like many Japanese companies (Sony), they simply reverse engineered, and improved upon the technologies that more tech savy companies had invented.

Austrailia has nothing to do with Subaru at all really - as far as the origins of the brand or it's tech. It's all Fuji Heavy, which as previously stated is a direct decendant of the aircraft company from WW2.

GD

#7 ezapar

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 12:35 PM

Many companies were involved during the war, including Mitsubishi, Mercedes, Cadillac, Chrysler etc.


I wouldn't call the technology a "rip off", I'd call it shared technology between the Germans and the Japanese during wartime. If you look at the Datsun Z motor, it's an exact copy of the Mercedes inline 6 from the 60's. . .
I'd say the flat four we use looks quite a bit like a VW or Porsche.


Who created/copied the V8?

#8 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 12:44 PM

Sorry Zap - your right, it could have been shared. That I don't know for sure. Seems like I heard a rumor about the EA81 being pulled from certain markets because VW was angry that is was too similar to their engines. But that is just a rumor. I think it's more likely that it was shared tech as you sugest, but the only thing that's holding me back on that account is that I'm pretty sure the flat 4 (at least on Subaru's side) post-date's the war by quite a bit. The 360 wasn't using that design anyway, and that's into the 60's....

GD

#9 All_talk

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 02:14 PM

I don’t know if Zapar was referring to the connection with the mention of the Z car, but Datsun/Nissan is also a division of Fuji Heavy Industries. I have a ’74 260Z (will be for sale soon), and if the Z engine is a copy of the Mercedes then the picked a great model, it’s a great engine.

Who created/copied the V8?


First production V8, Ford 1932, and I believe the first OHV V8 was from Cadillac in 1948.

VW had 4WD versions of the Beetle, Kubelwagon, Shwimwagon and others in the mid ‘30s, but not even VW can lay clame to the origin of the “boxer” engine design, it was common in airplanes in the late ‘20s, as it still is today.

Gary

#10 All_talk

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 02:20 PM

And for those who just have to know (like me :D )...

The first 4WD was designed by Ferdinand Porsche (of Porsche/VW) for the Austrian truck manufacturer Jacob Lohner in 1900. The vehicle had electric hub motors on each wheel - the engine powered a generator for power supply. Porsche was 25 years old when he designed the vehicle.

Gary

#11 MorganM

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 02:55 PM

This is prolly why Subaru advertisment department droped Paul Hogan, the Crocidile Dundee image, and "The world's first sport utility wagon" slogan after a couple years. People started thinking they were Austrailian and forgot they were Japaneese!

I thought that who marketing campaign was pretty good. Not long after they came out with this campaign I really started seeing Outbacks pop up all over. Too bad ppl assumed they were from Austrailia just cuz some stereotype Austrailian fictional character promoted them :)

#12 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 03:53 PM

Just to clarify a couple things....

I never said VW invented any of these things, just that Subaru based their designs on VW drivetrains of the period (60's). They did attempt to improve upon them (water cooling, front wheel drive, etc), but the similarities are so encompasing that even the distributors will swap between the OHV EAXX engines, and the 1600 VW engine. And I wasn't talking about who invented 4WD, I was talking about specifically the rod-shifted transaxle design being used in conjunction with 4WD and AWD.

And Porsce, VW and Audi for those who don't know, are divisions of the same company, and their parts are many times interchangeble - even on new cars. The new Porche and VW SUV's are the same rig - with different body panels and the porche having a 450 HP engine.

GD

#13 ezapar

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 04:55 PM

I know we're getting waaaaay off topic here, but. . .

I have a ’74 260Z (will be for sale soon), and if the Z engine is a copy of the Mercedes then the picked a great model, it’s a great engine.


I've had 2 75 280s. There's no way I'm ever gonna knock one of them. But I did get a chance to see under the hood of a 68/69 mercedes, and the motor was exactly the wame as the one in your 260. With the dual side drafts and everything.

#14 All_talk

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 04:56 PM

No Prob GD, I didn't take it that way, I was just adding info to the mix. :cool:

Gary

#15 bushbasher

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 06:16 PM

The japanese at first used shared or just copied technology from britain, germany etc. (nobody bothered to copy most american junk ;) Remember those little honda roadsters? They had exact copies of british SU carburators, and even looked very similiar to british sportscars of the era. But, over time, the japanese have gone far beyond the americans and europeans in terms of engine design, with superior engine alloys and engineering, bringing dohc aluminum engines with vvt and efi to the mainstream. Its now the rest of the world playing catch-up with the japanese.

#16 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 06:54 PM

Very true basher - they did bring a lot of these things to the mainstream.... that doesn't mean they invented them tho. Take VVT for example - The first VTEC engine in production by Honda was in the 91 NSX. Other cars of that vintage were also premeiring VVT - such as the Mclaren F1. And Ferrari has a unique system that is quite a bit better than VTEC, using a continous sliding 3 dimensional cam profile instead of just two. Most car companies are now working toward electro, or electro-hydrualic valves. The leader in that technology is in California, and Lotus already used something similar a couple years back - alas it was too expensive, at nearly $1000 per valve.

So they are STILL copying - but the real point that should be made is: *so is everyone else!*

GD

#17 THAWA

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 06:56 PM

This is prolly why Subaru advertisment department droped Paul Hogan, the Crocidile Dundee image, and "The world's first sport utility wagon" slogan after a couple years. People started thinking they were Austrailian and forgot they were Japaneese!

I thought that who marketing campaign was pretty good. Not long after they came out with this campaign I really started seeing Outbacks pop up all over. Too bad ppl assumed they were from Austrailia just cuz some stereotype Austrailian fictional character promoted them :)


thats so true its not funny.

#18 BobBrumby

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 10:03 PM

yeh if they where made here the new parts would be cheap.... and there not, mate :brow: .

#19 PHATBRAT

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 08:20 AM

As weird as this may sound, an older gentleman once told me that Subaru was actually an american idea in the early 70's (I think he said early 70's) anyway, He didn't have the money to start a whole big car business so he went to either one of the other car companies or some other business for help to get it started and they laughed at his idea. "Who the heck needs a little economical car" is what they said to him. They liked the idea of big V-8's and such with power not some little powerless car that had good gas mileage.


Like I said, This came out of the mouth of an older gentleman that I know very well who wouldn't just make this up. He said he read it or saw it on tv or something to that effect and he slightly remembers hearing something like that when subaru came out with their cars.

interesting huh?

#20 MorganM

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 08:33 AM

As weird as this may sound, an older gentleman once told me that Subaru was actually an american idea in the early 70's (I think he said early 70's) anyway, He didn't have the money to start a whole big car business so he went to either one of the other car companies or some other business for help to get it started and they laughed at his idea. "Who the heck needs a little economical car" is what they said to him. They liked the idea of big V-8's and such with power not some little powerless car that had good gas mileage.


Like I said, This came out of the mouth of an older gentleman that I know very well who wouldn't just make this up. He said he read it or saw it on tv or something to that effect and he slightly remembers hearing something like that when subaru came out with their cars.

interesting huh?


My father in law was talking of something similar. He said Subaru was kind of desperate to get dealerships set up. They would front you pretty much everything you needed to get off the ground if you would just sign the line and sell the damn cars. Sounded like a pretty sweet deal at the time but also a big risk.

#21 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 11:41 AM

He's probably talking about Malcolm Bricklin - the guy who brought Subaru's (and Yugo's!) to the US market (late 60's actually). He did have a lot of trouble getting dealerships to carry them. The dealerships didn't want to anger the american car manufacturers, and were reluctant to sell the mini-cars. Although I remember hearing that for a time, you could get a brand new 360 with the purchase of every new Buick! Hahahaha. (something along those lines anyway)

GD

#22 Fuji Fellow

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 06:20 PM

He's probably talking about Malcolm Bricklin - the guy who brought Subaru's (and Yugo's!) to the US market (late 60's actually). He did have a lot of trouble getting dealerships to carry them. The dealerships didn't want to anger the american car manufacturers, and were reluctant to sell the mini-cars. Although I remember hearing that for a time, you could get a brand new 360 with the purchase of every new Buick! Hahahaha. (something along those lines anyway)

GD


Yes, I've heard that too, that back in the late 60's there were Buick dealerships that would give you a 'free' Subaru 360 if you bought a new Buick. The joke was something along the line of, 'You don't need a spare tire - we give you a whole spare CAR in the trunk.'

James

#23 XSNRG

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 09:13 PM

I read somewhere that FUJI licensed the engine design from Germany/VW


Also, on the V8, I owned a 1923 Cadillac that came with a V8 with a custom aluminum body by Fisher and 23 inch wheels. It also had giant Westinghouse air shocks that sat outside the body, behind the bumpers. They were equiped with Schrader valves and the car had an on board compressor.

#24 All_talk

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Posted 05 May 2004 - 09:43 AM

Also, on the V8, I owned a 1923 Cadillac that came with a V8 with a custom aluminum body by Fisher and 23 inch wheels. It also had giant Westinghouse air shocks that sat outside the body, behind the bumpers. They were equiped with Schrader valves and the car had an on board compressor.


Hmm, Ford has always laid clam to the first “production” V8, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Cadillac had one first, they were responsible a lot of innovation in the early years. Sounds like I need to do a little more digging (I like to be well informed on such matters :) ).

Gary

#25 All_talk

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Posted 05 May 2004 - 10:14 AM

Yep XSNRG is spot on, a quick search reviles…


“Cadillac introduces its 1915 Type 51 line with the world's first mass-produced V8 engine. The Type 51 V8 features a 90-degree layout with three main bearings, L-head combustion chambers and water cooling. With a 3.125-inch bore and 5.125-inch stroke, the engine displaces 314 cubic inches and produces 70 horsepower at 2,400 rpm. Among its innovations is the first use of a thermostatically controlled cooling system, a feature that will soon be adopted universally. The 1915 Cadillacs are the first to come standard with left-hand drive.”

Apparently Ford’s clam involved language like “first affordable V8”. Though I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about cars, once again I find that I’m not quite as smart as I though… humble is good.

Gary




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