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'98 Legacy 2.2, timing belt woes, cam loading?

timing belt rough idle

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29 replies to this topic

#1 rztaylor

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:26 AM

So I have a 1998 Legacy 2.2.  This is my first subaru timing belt change, but I've change half dozen timing belts on other makes and models.  This thing is driving me nuts.

 

Car was running great previous to timing belt change.  I've taken off and have redone the belt three times, all with it ending with a rough idle and a motor vibration.

 

I align the cam sprockets to rough noon (using hash marks, not the arrows), and put the crankshaft at the right spot too. I'm using a belt with marks, but I always make sure the tooth count is correct 44 on rhs (passenger), 40.5 on lhs(driver).  The alignment is good, both before and after turning it back on.

 

I've watched videos, read many forum post and nothing seems to help it smooth out.  It sounds and runs like the timings off, but everything is aligned.

 

Can the cams be 360 out of sync?  I dont' think so, because the mark is the mark, right?  But maybe not.  When I put on the belt the passenger side cam is 'unloaded' no spring action when the hash mark is at noon...but the driver side cam is loaded (likes to jump off if I'm tweaking the belt too much without holding it in place).

 

The only other thing that comes to mind is with the battery being disconnected it reset the ecm, and thinks it has a clean throttle body, when it doesn't.  So the mix is off.  I've had other cars with that problem, but not sure about subarus.  Does that happen with Legacys?  I've seen conflicting posts with regard to cleaning throttle bodies.  This would explain the rough running, but maybe not the motor vibration

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

 



#2 johnceggleston

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:35 AM

what mark for the crank?

where is the crank keyway?

 

 

how do the marks look after you release the tensioner?

how about after a couple of revolutions?



#3 rztaylor

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 11:48 AM

The mark is on back side of the crank (on the plate thing..forget what it's called), the keyway being at 6 o'clock.

 

All three marks are lined up before and after tension release.  After a couple revolutions (pre-startup), the marks appear to all be aligned.  Same with after starting it up.  I mean it *might* be an extremely small amount off, like 1/4 tooth on one cam after running a bit.  But there wouldn't be anyway to get the cam or belt to be any different.

 

It's goofy.  


Edited by rztaylor, 21 April 2014 - 11:50 AM.


#4 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 12:57 PM

I don't guess you removed the intake hose from the IACV? I've read it's an easy thing to forget or have fall off when engine work is done.

you might try cleaning or replacing the crank sensor. I don't think it's common , but I have read on another forum about 'filings' collecting on the crank sensor causing issues. Maybe opening up the front has 'disturbed' it enough to cause issues?

#5 rztaylor

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:10 PM

I checked all the hoses, etc coming off the intake, but it certainly doesn't hurt to run through it again, maybe in the shuffling something got pulled off.  Thanks.

 

I can take a gander at the cranks sensor too.  By cleaning do you mean wiping it off and making sure the connection is good?

 

Does the 2.2L have a camshaft position sensor?  I've seen that mentioned in other places, but not sure how that might come into play?

 

Thanks for the suggestions!


Edited by rztaylor, 21 April 2014 - 01:11 PM.


#6 johnceggleston

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:20 PM

what are the symptoms?

no crank?

cranks but no fire?

fires but no start?

starts but dies?

runs like crap?

idles like crap?

 

any codes?

 

more info please.

or did i miss it?



#7 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:25 PM

I checked all the hoses, etc coming off the intake, but it certainly doesn't hurt to run through it again, maybe in the shuffling something got pulled off.  Thanks.
 
I can take a gander at the cranks sensor too.  By cleaning do you mean wiping it off and making sure the connection is good?
 
Does the 2.2L have a camshaft position sensor?  I've seen that mentioned in other places, but not sure how that might come into play?
 
Thanks for the suggestions!

yeah, it's a longshot but, just wipe it down with a paper towel(I was chasing a problem oand wiped mine down, tested the the 'stuff' with a magnet and several pieces stuck. I guess the theory is, some collected metal dust 'could' make signals from it marginal. - again, longshot). never hurts to occasionally re-seat an electrical connector.

#8 rztaylor

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:29 PM

No codes, cranks up just fine.  Just runs like crap, idles like crap.  I would think any idle sensor or ecm problem would throw a code, but I'm scratching my head on what else it could be...

 

It runs like timing is off, but the all three marks appear to align.  

 

Tonight I"m going to stop by the store and pick up another belt, just to compare.  The belt that I put on was a Gates belt, not sure if people like or hate them.  But with the teeth seemingly matching up to spec don't think that's it, but at this point I'm ready to look into anything.



#9 johnceggleston

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:59 PM

vac leak.

while it is running, spray all around the engine and hoses with carb cleaner or starting fluid.

 

double check the large hose that runs from the IAC to the under side of the plastic intake plenum.


Edited by johnceggleston, 21 April 2014 - 02:00 PM.


#10 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:59 PM

Gates is probably the most popular aftermarket belt. very popular, never read of an issue with them. That said, almost everyone finds a mark on the back that is half a tooth off.

sometimes, there are 'pending' codes. If used scanner and none show up - then there are none. But, some codes need to hit twice to set the CEL.

sometimes knock sensors and Engine Temp Sensors (not the temp gauge sender) are bad without setting a code. maybe a minor vacuum leak, or some oil in a spark plug tube, etc. , might not set a code if minor.

Edited by 1 Lucky Texan, 21 April 2014 - 02:21 PM.


#11 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 01:59 PM

nvrmd

Edited by 1 Lucky Texan, 21 April 2014 - 02:21 PM.


#12 rztaylor

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:10 PM

vac leak.

while it is running, spray all around the engine and hoses with carb cleaner or starting fluid.

 

double check the large hose that runs from the IAC to the under side of the plastic intake plenum.

That's a good idea, I'll give it a shot thanks!

 

 

Gates is probably the most popular aftermarket belt. very popular, never read of an issue with them. That said, almost everyone finds a mark on the back that is half a tooth off.

sometimes, there are 'pending' codes. If used scanner and none show up - then there are none. But, some codes need to hit twice to set the CEL.

sometimes knock sensors and Engine Temp Sensors (not the temp gauge sender) are bad without setting a code. maybe a minor vacuum leak, or some oil in a spark plug tube, etc. , might not set a code if minor.

Here's a pic of my left side cam after tension and several rotations.  The crank and right side cam are dead on...as you can see it's a little off, like half a mark.  If I move the cam back on tooth though, then it's a 39.5 teeth from crankshaft mark.  So is this enough of a problem?

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#13 Gloyale

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:42 PM

That looks correct.

 

The marks in the plastic can be decieving.....disrtorted from heat/time..........Dead nuts straight up 12 o'clock is correct.

 

I would suspect a vac line???



#14 rztaylor

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:34 PM

SOLVED:  Put it all back together, started it -- same issue, running rough.  It was misfiring, stuck a piece of paper on the exhaust and it was sucking air.

 

So I decided to pull the plugs and do a compression test. Inspecting the plugs as I was pulling them the #1 cylinder plug was bent, no gap.   I said a few cuss words.  So I continued the compression test, just to confirm things.

 

BUT, compression was great and consistent on all four cylinders.  Straightened up the plug, put it back in and it ran just as smooth as it ever has!  Yay.

 

The only thing I can figure is when I removed the plug at the beginning to help verify TDC, I must've somehow bent the plug??  I can think of anything else to make it happen.

 

Bottom line, I can change timing belts just fine, but changing plugs is beyond my capability....

 

Thanks everyone for the help.


Edited by rztaylor, 21 April 2014 - 10:34 PM.


#15 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:56 PM

great news. you had a problem and you solved it - at no cost!

Edited by 1 Lucky Texan, 21 April 2014 - 11:01 PM.


#16 zbrown

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:48 PM

I'm having the same issue as Newbie except my spark plug isn't bent. I have a 1996 Legacy 2.2 Wagon. Have a haynes manual & followed it step by step. I have the same issue with the left camshaft acting like it's spring loaded. When we turned it back just a touch it made a springing sound. This car will not start now. I'm wondering if this could have done something to put it out of time? We've checked our timing marks several times,everything seems to be in place. This car was running when we brought it in the shop to change the water pump. Are there any particular steps to set original timing ? 



#17 rztaylor

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:03 PM

That left camshaft should be springloaded.  Assuming the rest of the marks were on or near the right timing mark, it springing one way or other shouldn't have hurt anything --and besides I think the '96 is a non-interference, so I don't think it's even possible for valves and pistons to meet.

 

When you say, "car will not start", do you mean it sputters and dies, or will not crank at all? I assume you checked all the other connections, didn't unplug the coil, battery is good, etc.?



#18 zbrown

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:09 PM

Yes, it is a non-interference engine. The car will turn over but does not start. 



#19 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:17 PM

triple check that you timed the crank sprocket using the vertical 'dash' on the tab behind and NOT the arrow/triangle on the front.

#20 zbrown

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:22 PM

Originally we did we the arrow then we realized that we should have used the "dash" on the back of the crankshaft pulley. 



#21 zbrown

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:23 PM

*use the arrow



#22 rztaylor

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 07:33 PM

I assume you verified fuel and spark?



#23 zbrown

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:17 PM

We don't have spark out of the coil on #3 & #4 , so we're back to testing. Very confused as we drove this car into the shop to change the water pump..... 



#24 rztaylor

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:58 PM

Found this on another forum. Sorry to the mods if that's not cool, but I didn't find same issue here..

Worth a look maybe on the crank sensor.

http://www.subaruout...t-no-spark.html

#25 Fairtax4me

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:06 PM

Did you remove the cam sprockets to change the seals?
Drivers side sprocket has notches on the back for the cam sensor.
If you switched the sprockets by accident you'll get no cam sensor trigger.





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