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86 Barn Find Brat - Gas tank or pump Questions?

Fuel Gas Pump

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20 replies to this topic

#1 Thundar

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 04:31 AM

Hello Subaru Lovers...

 

Read at bottom to help top is just about car.

 

 

I have a question for you guys that maybe you can help me with. I have been a Honda and VW (old ones) for years but new to this car.

 

So for quick story traded some work for an 86 Subaru bra rust free AZ car, (fixed his Honda) and got it home and just loved it and want to keep it!

 

T-tops 4x4 and boxer motor that I have worked on for years before on type I-V VW got it.   IT's the same but not cause there is water in violved.

 

So I ask you as a community to help restore this great car to it glory. And to all the haters I say "It's Got T-Tops"!

 

 

ok,

 

The tags on car are AZ 97 so last time was on road. Guy before he got it gave it to him for some job, so been sitting for while.

 

I found it and was from the last guy he said had bad pistion (#3) got it and have it here now. Did compression test 170 psi pass right was 160/165 +/- which I think is good.

 

I have restore old VW Westfalia and they big $ now, but as they are cool I still want to keep this car alive. Also I know what that means and to come on getting it running.

 

So car is rust free AZ car title search is AZ all the time no rust, other than little expected litle in bed, easy fix and everything is there and works.

 

So you read about car,

Quston of car, I knew was sitting for 10+ under cover that gas would be bad and turn to you all know what into, so I pumped it all out. Put new gas in (4+ gal) and now with new pump and or and pump or suck a drop.

 

The gas that came out wasn't that bad, I've done old 911 that sat for 30 years in rusty area and this was clean. So my question to you all, help me get this car back on road.

 

Yes there could be plug somewhere which I will check, or tank is that gumed up, which will take and get tank cleaned.

 

But what I don't understand it's a carbarted system with 4-8 psi why doesn't goop break fee? Question I have to ask that subi may know.

 

 

tank has 3 hoses hanging down next to fuel pump so when it was parked there was a problem with getting fuel, I have ran the car under starter fuilded and sounds fine, what is that cyclender (small) thing on the 3rd hose and is it a air thing that's keeping the fuel from flowing if not blockage? Anyone have pictures or digramas to show how that old fuel system works, and or do I have to take real end out to get fuel tank out to get it cleaned?

 

To be more clear, 3 lines come from tank - ones goes to fuel filter, which I get nothin, 2nd goes over in loop, 3rd goes to small capsal thing and back. Any Pics or ideas would be great.

 

Thanks for any help

Attached Files


Edited by Thundar, 01 September 2014 - 05:04 AM.


#2 l75eya

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 09:27 AM

Wow, super nice brat! You could sell that for good money. Check out resale on eBay.

About the three lines, I'm pretty sure one is main fuel line, one is a fuel return line, and one is a vent.

It's not clear above, did you install a new fuel pump?

Try blowing compressed air through the fuel line.

#3 turbosubarubrat

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 11:39 AM

Did you check to make sure your getting power to the pump under the bed? Also did you replace both fuel filters the one by the pump and the one in the engine bay? The carb system is only about 2 psi just enough to get the gas to the carb. The three types of lines for the fuel system are inlet, return, and fuel vapor which can be identified fairly easy.



#4 jono

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 05:53 PM

got one sat same time, just in a city barn :)

 

I tried to start it on its old fuel. Then drained it. Fresh fuel. still no start. Took 90 psi blowing right at the tank near diff, to blast the barnacles off the mesh pick up inside. Look inside through the sender unit hole to see it black and brown with crud.

 

I got it all sorted and running - sweet.

 

Parked it.

 

Six months later, felt like flat battery, click, click

 

booster battery click, click

 

nother battery on its own, finally started but ran crap

 

still ran crap

 

could not even move under its power.

 

comp test revealed zero in one cylinder , that was 190 before.

 

Head off to find inlet valve on #3 stuck open , valve stem coated in a shiny, not set hard black sticky goop that smelled of stale fuel

 

same story on same position inlet valve other side head.

 

Next time I get a long term sit car will be tank out and cleaned before even trying to start, and new engine oil. I almost suspect goop disolved in fresh fuel, tainted it and gave me more hours to do head gaskets. hint hint



#5 Thundar

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 08:20 PM

So off the tank there are 3 lines, left is a goes on around and comes back so must be the vent. Middle hose goes to fuel filter which I get no gas from even when put 25 psi suction on it. 3rd goes to that werd valve thing next to fuel pump then back. Yes I got new fuel pump but burnt up first one cause it had no gas when trying to get it running (got new one on way under warranty -thanks Rockauto!) should be here tommorow.

 

So that valve thing should not be an issue? And should gas flow off line to filter (Yes replaced both of them) or is system on those that will only flow under pressure?

 

I will try blowing air into all lines before I put new pump in see if that clears it, but how do I know if it's clear? Should fuel come out on own or does it have to suction for it to flow?

 

Also I did test power coming to fuel pump and we are good there was getting 12v when I cranked car.

 

Thanks for any help! Car seems to run good but need more than 30 sec running under starter fluid to tell.

 

Here is a pic of that valve I'm talking about, what is it and if cloged or stuck will it stop fuel from flowing?

 

Valve_zps5e7b5adc.jpg

 

If I do have to take tank out does this bar have to come off or can tank slide out around it?

 

bar_zps073ccd81.jpg


Edited by Thundar, 01 September 2014 - 08:51 PM.


#6 jono

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:36 AM

I put my pressure right at the tank, at whichever line fed the fuel pump. i he...OK, I felt like the wolf in three little pig story :) held the pressure at the hose real tight, fuel started blow at me from somewhere else ?, maybe was just air blowing back, and finally after what seemed like minutes was some sort of release - the compressed air was flowing into the tank. Then after hooking up, the pump would flow fuel. Would not expect rock to give you warranty on that pump if they knew it went dry ....

 

That bar, fondly named moustache bar, comes off easy when back end is hanging, diff hangs on by front mount and bolt, few small 8mm or so hose clamps may be handy in your spares if you stuff the originals getting tank out, breather lines etc. Lucky you don't have redback spiders - found one living between tank and floor. Those spiders can put you in hospital, bed at least for a week, won't be able to focus beyond the bedside table and take siz weeks before you feel 100% again. Second time over was worse for an American woman I met here- she got bit twice by these dark place hiding little uglies!

 

I resarched acid wash for fuel tanks and used hydrochloric with regard to correct method and safety - bad stuff. Nuetralised it with carb soda wash out after, just in case it not mix with petroleum

 

that valve pressure thing must just be a damper - not likely a problem need to deal with


Edited by jono, 02 September 2014 - 02:40 AM.


#7 TomRhere

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 03:07 AM

That valve allows the tank to breath as in letting vapors out and air in. Nothing to do with fuel flow.

 

I just remove the nuts at the mounts on the end of the mustache bar and let it swing down some when I need to drop a tank.



#8 Gloyale

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:29 AM

That valve is for rollover. 

 

Fuel should flow out of the largest of the 3 lines when unplugged.

 

the smallest line is the fuel return.

 

the vent is slightly larger, and runs up to the filler neck area.



#9 Thundar

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 05:06 PM

Got fuel pump in today, so going to blow out the lines and see if I can get it cleared up. So if I do get fuel line clear I should see fuel coming out without any suction on hose correct? Also should I mess with clearing the vent and return line, if they are clogged up with it stop fuel from flowing?



#10 TomRhere

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 08:06 PM

Picture shown above of the circled valve is showing the 2-way valve, located in the fuel vapor line.

The 2-way valve functions to control the pressure in the tank.

 

When the tank has pressure in it above a preset point, valve "A" opens to allow vapors to the charchol canister.

 

When tank pressure is bellow a pre-set point, valve "B" opens to allow fresh air in to tank.

 

'83 FSM Section 5, page 48, figure 5-60.

 

 

For what ever reason, I can't post actual copy of said page/description.



#11 Thundar

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 08:48 PM

Ok, so will that vavle will stop fuel coming out if it is clogged or not working then? Do you have a link to that manual, a pdf or somewhere else I can download it? I would think if I take the fuel cap off should let enough air in that I can get fuel flowing even if that vavle is broke, correct?

 

I just don't want to do all the work (or pull the tank) trying to get fuel coming out of tank to pump and have it be something else that is not letting it flow like that valve.


Edited by Thundar, 03 September 2014 - 08:50 PM.


#12 TomRhere

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 03:04 AM

I think the problem lies with the pick up in the tank vs. any thing wrong with that valve.

 

If the valve was bad, you would still get an initial flow of fuel.

 

Clean the lines, see if that helps.



#13 Thundar

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:46 AM

So, did air blow at 90 psi on hose to filter, heard air and noises in tank and air I think would be upper release, still no fuel... I pulled all coming off tank bottom (looking at back) left was small and did air old gas came out the line goes into frame (fuel to engine)  so flushed that out. going to the return I think (has 3 way filter engine bay) So I got that clear now. The right of that just made noise and air. Middle which is fuel same made noise, bubble but no gas out.

 

I took off the fuel sender to look see what is in tank, lots of mist gas air white and scarey. Tank was leaking gas front hole from sender and tried to check fuel gauge which is higher than feeder lines front tank, I want to ask.

 

When That fuel gauge sender off was leaking gas (higher than output hoses) Did I not put enough fuel in... (I only put like 2 to 2.5 gals) in on a total drained tank so you that the tank would not flow now? I know that these hoses are lower than fuel sender should get fuel right. Also that pressure valve (round thing) seems to be working could hear it "click" when put air on the vent line.

 

Anyone know how that fuel tank is made? Does it have baffles or chambers that could stop low gas to flow? Would be if sad if I only need to put 5 gal in for it to work.

 

Fuel going into car (hose that goes into cab to the engine) seems ok after doing feed fuel test, still doesn't run right but fuel is going to filter up front just runs out of gas before can feed it.

 

Any help from tank back -Thanks.


Edited by Thundar, 04 September 2014 - 05:40 AM.


#14 coxy

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 01:02 AM

A safe and cheap and highly effective way of cleaning rust out of fuel tanks is believe it or not Apple Cider Vinegear, Takes a few days and a refill or tow but much better than playing with acid to clean rust out.

A google search on this will show some amazing results.



#15 Thundar

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:11 AM

Looks like I'm dumb As*, 2+ gals of fuel is not enough fuel for (drained empty tank) to flow. Put it on lift without front lift arms on and did a 30+ o angle up and sure enough gas started come out :rolleyes: , so can flow so got more gas and hooking everything back up. Will let know how turns out. Thanks for all the help, will for have more questions once can run more than 20 sec coming up. :ph34r:



#16 Thundar

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 05:23 AM

Ok added more gas now runs fine (Can't believe it really takes 3+ gals to pick-up gas.) Got the correct 3 way filter on order (in engine bay) Runs Ok now with old one so could be problem, but have to keep pumping gas peddle to keep it over 2000 rpms and then runs fine if I let off it will die.Did compression test all cylinders are at 170 psi.

 

 

Brat-004_zpsbdce88a4.jpg

 

Brat-007_zpsa942d616.jpg

 

Brat002_zps56f3c849.jpg

 

Wheel in bed is stock and in good shape with center cap and chrome ring, other is the spare.

 

7faba2ed-9b1a-4e67-ab63-adbecf103d59_zps


Edited by Thundar, 11 September 2014 - 12:39 PM.


#17 Thundar

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 12:46 PM

Want to keep it now and fix.

So got new filter and put some carb cleaner and is running better. BUT I have been adding water to radiator every time I work on it, was thinking was just was dry and was flowing more once thermostat opened. No now after running it for more than 5 mins got water in oil... So knowing might have to get a rebuilt carb and rebuild motor (at lest heads and gaskets) Would it be better and cheaper to just do motor swap with something newer with FI? If so what are my options to replace it with? 



#18 jono

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 04:57 PM

enter the land of healing chemicals and see what is available to seal up cracked blocks, head gaskets etc. They can work well with the water in oil trick. Add a sealer to the radiator such as Silver Seal made in USA, must be heaps of other stuff available. Another is a black block of initially dry, then sticky stuff as you crumble , or dissolve it into coolant and hey presto ! Nice move keeping it.


Edited by jono, 11 September 2014 - 04:59 PM.


#19 Thundar

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 06:48 PM

I don't fix my cars with chemicals, I do it right or not at all... I don't know enough about this motor to guess if it's just head gasket leaking or crack in block. I am little worried because all 4 cylinders show 170 psi that it maybe more than head gasket. Which goes back to my question would it be cheaper and easier to get a newer motor to swap because parts for this car are so hard to find and expensive that might be better to put something else in.

 

Ordered Subaru 1970-88 (Chilton's Repair & Tune-Up Guides) (twice) from Amazon both times they said shipped when they did not have it in stock from 3rd party sellers, talked to Amazon today and got it from them and got it ordered next day shipping and they waived the $20 shipping charge so should be here tomorrow. Once I have that can look more into what could be issue, I have full AllData but it shows car with timing belt so not right info.

 

Guess last question, do these cars leak water into oil more from head gaskets or more major like block on average? I know with Honda's it common to have head gasket leaks and water gets in oil, but usually the culprit cylinder is low on psi.



#20 TomRhere

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 02:46 AM

There are freeze plugs under the valve covers. If they leak or pop out, you get coolant in oil.

I would look there first.



#21 Thundar

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 01:40 PM

So going to pull the heads off and get rebuilt and resurface. Hopping will see clear sign that one of them is bad causing water leak into oil. After looking into more think best bet is go for web carb conversion if needed other than trying for FI SPFI option to get rid of all the problems these old carbs have.

 

Heard a loud pop like gun shoot yesterday outside, and found this:

 

brat-001_zps3559dc62.jpg

 

Back 2 were bad to start but fronts have full tread (but old) Knew was going to have to get new ones, after looking guess there are no BF 205/70/13 sold today. Best can do these days is 185/70/13 is only size can buy now.

 

At some point will do the 6 lug Toyota wheel conversion.







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