psychocandy Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 OK, here's the long story: I was driving along, Check Engine Light came on, and the car immediately lost power. I checked the code and got the camshaft sensor fail (P10304, or somethign similar?) code. I figured the sensor had to have gone bad since the timing belt is less than 30k miles since replacement. I replaced the cam sensor and cleared the code, but still nothing. I took of one of the side timing belt covers and I found a shredded tb. WTF!* Anyway, I got a new tb and tested things out. Turned the crank through several revolutions and things seemed to be OK. It did not appear to have bent any valves (i know what that feels like, I've bent the valves on a motorcycle engine before). However, now that I've put it back together, it still won't start. I charged the battery up to full again to make sure it wasn't due to running the battery down, trying to start the car and failing. Still nothing. The engine is not throwing any fault codes. Any ideas on what next steps should be? '97 Impreza Outback, 2.2 Auto trans, *Pretty sure I figured out how/why the tb shredded. There's a leak from the power steering reservoir/pump. I think ps fluid leaked onto the tb cover, got inside, and weakened the belt until it just popped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 did you check the idlers when the belt was off? did you replace them 30k miles ago with the belt.? the timing is probably off. what timing marks did you use? how many timing belts have you put on? btw, what year, model, miles, trans, and color is your car? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychocandy Posted October 16, 2014 Author Share Posted October 16, 2014 I put car info at the end of the post: '97 Impreza Outback, EJ22, 4EAT, Black. No spoiler. When I did the tb, i got a full kit and replaced the idlers as well. This is the cars's 3rd tb. The one I put on before this that snapped was the car's 2nd. I lined up the arrow on the mainshaft to the cutout/mark that is slightly to the driver's side from the center. I lined up the timing marks on the driver's side pulley with the cutout/mark on the top of the rear tb cover. The passenger side was little weird as there appear to be 3 timing marks on the pulley. Still, I tried to get the middle mark lined up with the cutout/mark on that tb cover as well. I doubt the timing is off. Still, I've heard that being off by 1/2 to 1 tooth might marginally affect performance, but should not create any error codes and the car should still start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) your timing is off - redo using the correct hash marks - not the arrows - ever. for the crank sprocket, you need to use the hash mark on the rear side Edited October 16, 2014 by heartless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Right on, not the arrows, the hash marks for timing. Hopefully using the arrows didn't result in any bent valves. If it still won't start after using the hash marks, maybe do a compression test to see what you get. Hopefully no valves got bent from using the arrows. Same idea on the cam sprockets, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychocandy Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 The crank rotates all the way by hand. I checked before making any attempt to start the car. I have bent the valves on a motorcycle engine. So I made sure to put the crank through several revolutions by hand with the belt on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 The crank rotates all the way by hand. I checked before making any attempt to start the car. I have bent the valves on a motorcycle engine. So I made sure to put the crank through several revolutions by hand with the belt on. ok, that does not mean you used the correct timing marks . NOT the ARROWS, NEVER the ARROWS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychocandy Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 What year was the switch from non-interference engines to interference? I was using the incorrect timing marks. Car now starts and runs. It seem like the motor vibrates more than it used to at idle though. However, it smoothes out once the RPMs go up. Ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 mid 97 was the switch to interference. I would do a leakdown to determine if any valves are slighlty off. these will not seize the engine like motorcycle engines or others.....the valves will still ride smooth in the guides but be a degree or 2 off of true and not quite seal properly in the valve seat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychocandy Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 At some point on this car, the engine was replaced. I think the rest of the car is MY 1998. The replacement engine must be a 1997 or earlier. I've never had a car lose the timing belt. With an regular interference engine, losing the tb while the car is running will munch the engine, correct? I've done the belt 3 times in the past couple days. not stoked on possibly having to do it again. I had all the correct timing marks lined up when I put it back together this time. Would a degree or two off cause more vibration at idle? Otherwise, it revs easily and smoothes out once it gets gas. Just wondering if I'm being more sensitive to engine vibrations or if it's a result of the repair. It's not throwing any fault codes, and the engine wasn't especially smooth to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 check the door tag to verify chassis model year. engine is a little tougher to pin down if it has been changed just out of curiosity - when was the last time it had a basic tune-up? plugs, wires, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychocandy Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 I replaced the plugs, wires, and even the coil pack not that long ago (less than 2 years). It's about due for an oil change. Aside from the power steering fluid leak. Car ran swell. In fact, even though there's evidence of a ps fluid leak, the steering is fine. Anyone have any links to an illustrated how to for replacing the o ring that commonly goes bad in the ps pump? I've read some threads about it, but haven't found a good how to. I replaced the tb cover rubbers to make for a better seal against any fluid getting on to the tb. I might try to look for some tb covers on eBay since there are some small cracks in the tb cover that can't really be sealed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) might try http://www.car-part.com for t-belt covers too - you might get lucky and find something close by. sorry I cant be of much help on the ps leak thing tho, never done it. Edited October 18, 2014 by heartless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychocandy Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 Ugh. There's def. something off. Hopefully it's just being a tooth or two off on the belt. Well, I wanted to replace the old tv belt covers anyway. Sigh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Take heart, man - it could be just one tooth - yes, it is a pain to do multiple times, but once you do get it right, you will know. I think most of us that have done this job have had to do it over at least once... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychocandy Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 Before I do it all over again. Or decide to just take it to a mechanic. I have some simple questions for those possibly more in the know. Is it possibly just a tooth or two off? I read in a timing belt how to (specific for my car) that being 1/2 tooth to 1 tooth off might not actually be that noticeable. This time, it is definitely noticeable. Idle is rough. Car drives sorta OK, but hesitates a tad when I take off from a stop. There's also hesitations when the AT shifts. There are moments when it almost feels like it's about to stall. Also, would I smell unburnt fuel or something from the tailpipe? If it was a vacuum leak, it would likely throw an error code, right? I took the airbox off to get access to the torque converter. but there's only a couple hoses that connect to the airbox on the bottom. I didn't unplug anything else and I took a pretty good look to see if there were any random hoses that got disconnected. I haven't driven the car long. But I did drive it for a couple miles. And at surface street speeds it was hard to tell anything was off. I don't really see how one could keep driving the car like this, but I've read some threads on other sites where people drove their cars for a while before deciding to do anything about it and discovering their timing belt was off. I guess that r/r of the timing belt isn't such a big deal. Compressing the tensioner is really the hardest part. Also, knowing now that I have a non-interference engine is cool in a way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) Could maybe do a compression test. I remember the old Endwrench article used to say that one tooth off it would start and run but would lack power; it claimed two teeth off it would not start. It had the details for the compression test but I forget exactly what it said, something like >180psig in all cylinders I think and not too much difference between cylinders. Did you use a genuine belt, or did your belt have the lines on it to line up with the hash marks? If not and you think it may be off, may have to count the teeth on the belt between the sprocket hash marks. Edited October 19, 2014 by porcupine73 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) from the FSM for 97 SOHC EJ22 - should have 44 teeth between passenger side cam sprocket mark and the crank sprocket mark, drivers side should be 40.5 teeth between the crank sprocket and DS cam sprocket marks - it is that 1/2 tooth that will get you nearly every time. 97 FSM SOHC Engine section you want the one that ends with "L3456" (9th one down) for the timing belt procedures. Edited October 19, 2014 by heartless 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimaceNMike Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 My book only goes up to 96.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Never done a tb but reading these posts, I always wondered why the hell are there arrows... Is it some kind of gotcha that engineers laugh over at lunch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) I've only done three belts on the sohc. The only 'trick ' I noticed is that the left cam seems to need to be slightly ahead of the hash mark on the timing cover. When the tensioner pin is pulled, it then seems to rotate to align with the hash on the timing cover. With the genuine belt I don't think you can go wrong, the lines on the belt are exact. Never done a tb but reading these posts, I always wondered why the hell are there arrows... Is it some kind of gotcha that engineers laugh over at lunch? I believe the arrows are for piston position. It's dry enough that it could be an engineering joke. I think they prefer to have contests amongst themselves to see who can develop the most 'Subaru special tools'. Edited October 19, 2014 by porcupine73 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forester2002s Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) I do the same thing each time I do a timing-belt: - I use a yellow wax-type marker; - I mark all of the drive and driven toothed-pulleys; - I make yellow marks on the belt, on the pulleys, and on the engine block, all in line; - then BEFORE disassembling, I take a photo of the front of the engine, showing all of these marks; - finally, I remove the old belt, and I transfer the marks from the old belt to the new belt, then reassemble. Edited October 19, 2014 by forester2002s 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brus brother Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I do the same thing each time I do a timing-belt: - I use a yellow wax-type marker; - I mark all of the drive and driven toothed-pulleys; - I make yellow marks on the belt, on the pulleys, and on the engine block, all in line; - then BEFORE disassembling, I take a photo of the front of the engine, showing all of these marks; - finally, I remove the old belt, and I transfer the marks from the old belt to the new belt, then reassemble. Ah, the 6P Rule: Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I do the same thing each time I do a timing-belt: - I use a yellow wax-type marker; - I mark all of the drive and driven toothed-pulleys; - I make yellow marks on the belt, on the pulleys, and on the engine block, all in line; - then BEFORE disassembling, I take a photo of the front of the engine, showing all of these marks; - finally, I remove the old belt, and I transfer the marks from the old belt to the new belt, then reassemble. Yeah I just rip the old belt off..... Then I install the new one using the marks on the pulleys straight up. There really isn't a need to use the marks on the belt but they can be helpful. *note* plastic covers distort so I always go by excactly straight up even if it's not quite on the plastic marks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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