l75eya Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 I found this talking about a clutch sticking to the flywheel. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/136471-79-brat-clutch-issue/ Any thoughts? I already tried cranking the engine with my foot on the clutch and brake while in gear. Car cranks but won't start. No change. Is it possible it's rusted or stuck to the flywheel? I installed the clutch and pressure plate with the trans out and it was out for a week. I'm sure it rained during that time. Could this be the problem after all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonist Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 How much trouble did you have lining up the tranny with the engine? I've heard of people bending the fingers on the clutch pressure plate by getting the input shaft pressing on them instead of going through the hole. Or even by resting the input shaft on the clutch plate as you lift it into position. This is part of the reason I recommended pulling the engine not the trans, because at least you know you can get the 2 mated exactly & squarely, not at an angle On my first car (an 85 sedan), I got a faulty clutch plate where one of the coiled springs come out and got jammed. I couldn't get the car into 1st gear at all with the engine running, and 2nd was just barely. For about 1 week, I was driving around by taking off in 2nd gear, low range (or it might have been 3rd), then high range, then 4th. Really annoyed other driver cos I'd take off really slow, then suddenly accelerate when the engine got enough revs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 I just put enough force on the clutch that I imagine if it was rusted it would have broke free. Front wheels in the air, 70 mph on the speedo in fifth, foot on the clutch, slam on the brake, nothing. Stalled motor. Worth a shot. Didn't break anything so there is that. Still not disengaging. Wagonist, it was a bear to line up by myself, but I'm pretty certain I didn't hit the flanges. I'm contemplating driving it to a garage and having them finish the job. I'm tired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRhere Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Only thing I can add would be bad pilot bearing. But it would really have to be buggered to stall the engine with what you just tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 New pilot bearing.Only thing I can add to that is when I installed it I wasn't sure if it was supposed to sit flush with the back (trans side) of the flywheel, or flush with the front (engine) side of the flywheel, so I left it relatively in the middle and imagine if it was supposed to be on one side or the other it'd either get pushed there during installation or wouldn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Loyale Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) See pilot bearing theory in post below. Edited November 25, 2014 by MR_Loyale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Loyale Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) New pilot bearing. Only thing I can add to that is when I installed it I wasn't sure if it was supposed to sit flush with the back (trans side) of the flywheel, or flush with the front (engine) side of the flywheel, so I left it relatively in the middle and imagine if it was supposed to be on one side or the other it'd either get pushed there during installation or wouldn't matter. The pilot bearing is supposed to be flush with the flywheel. It would not get "pushed in" when bringing them together because the trans input shaft would fit through the inside of the pilot bearing, that is the way it is designed. You have the clutch disc bound against the pilot bearing part that is proud of the flywheel and that is what is keeping it engaged. Think about it. The outer body of the pilot bearing is in contact with the flywheel. Now the clutch plate is up against that and there is no way to break that friction. The part of the body of the pilot bearing sticking out exceeds any range of release providing by depressing the release fingers and thus even if the release bearing is properly pressing against the clutch plate, it will not release the clutch. Kind of like a tubular shim. You got to take it out and make the pilot bearing sit flush as shown below: Edited November 25, 2014 by MR_Loyale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted November 25, 2014 Author Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) The hole the pilot bearing fits in to in the flywheel is deeper than the pilot bearing itself is, which is what I was saying above. Because the pilot bearing isn't as deep as the flywheel, I opted to keep it sort of in the middle. Almost identical to that photo but a LITTLE bit deeper in the flywheel than that. Though even if what you are suggesting were the case, I couldn't imagine that slight bit of rub overcoming the idle of the engine, let alone the torque of hitting the brakes with such momentum as I did. Either way though, as much as it hurts my pride, the car is going to go in to a local garage for somebody to figure out my headache. I appreciate all the suggestions and time. Will update with the cause when it's discovered. Edited November 25, 2014 by l75eya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hsoj Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Can you look through the clutch fork hole to see how its looking? You can do that with it running or not. ( just keep someone ready on the brakes in case a tire catches your pants if its running.. safety first ) There is just enough room to peer in, use a tube if necessary and a flashlight and get someone to activate the clutch. (kinda cool regardless...IMHO) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted November 25, 2014 Author Share Posted November 25, 2014 I've looked. Everything looks fine. I've visually seen the clutch fork fully released and the throw out bearing in there just chilling, and I've seen it with the clutch pedal pushed in at high adjustment and I can see the clutch fork way forward and the throw out bearing spinning and pushed in to the flanges. All that seems to be operating fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonist Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 The only other thing I can think about is that the clutch disc supplied is the wrong one for the kit and is too fat. The pressure plate doesn't move that much when you disengage it (it only needs to be enough to lose contact), but if the clutch is too fat then it can't disengage. I feel for you trying to get a problem like this fixed. Good luck and keep us informed if you take it to a shop. Hope it's not something major. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted November 25, 2014 Author Share Posted November 25, 2014 I was thinking along those lines as well wagonist. I double checked the clutch kit I ordered and it is correct for an 87 4wd GL. One thing I can't confirm however is if there is any difference between the clutch for an 87 4wd GL (my car) and an 85 RX turbo 4wd (my new trans) or if there is any difference between the flywheel for either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRhere Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 @wagonist Now that you mentioned it, I recall an issue from years back of new clutch kit installed, wouldn't release. Car in question belonged to a customer, he supplied all parts needed. I had the flywheel machined. Many attempts at getting it to work, even pulled flywheel back off and had it checked by the shop that did it. Gave up and bought another clutch kit, installed it, and no issues. Something wasn't right with the 1st kit. Customer was able to get that money back. So all was Happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hsoj Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Hmmm, bad pressure plate? That sounds really strange. I wish I could see these things in an exploded working view... looking at then I see they are complex, but yet so simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 my head hurts ....have you measured the 'pull' distance at the cable / fork ? It should do 25mm from rest to fully depressed. RXs had a different pedal box set up- including different pedal, but used same cable. There is no spec for pull of just RX V's others. Clutch disc orientation is fool proof I think. The RX box has 25 spline stubs for CV shafts - guess you are on top of that and not your problem at this point anyway, your old box had 25 too ? When you say you can slect all gears with engine not running - are you using clutch pedal each shift or just got a sweet spot and can do without declutching ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 Lol, if your head hurts just from reading about it, imagine me! Haha! Clutch fork will pull all the way to the extent of its travel backward. Didn't know about the different pedal set up, but like I said, I have full clutch fork travel anyways so that's a no go, Went through the spine difference on the axles already. I have turbo axles in my car now. Clutch disc orientation is indeed full proof. One side is raised and that side faces the pressure plate. I can engage all gears with the engine off because the input shaft is not spinning. Either with the clutch in or out. Makes no difference but that's obviously because the motor isn't running and nothing is turning. Problem in a nutshell is that for some reason or another my clutch disc is always engaged to the flywheel, so my input shaft is always spinning when the motor is spinning. The hard part is finding out why. Thanks for your ideas and thoughts though. Happy Thanksgiving everybody! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 Unless I'm wrong about the clutch plate.. Now you've got me second guessing that even though I'm 99 prevent sure I put it back in the way it came out. Can somebody verify proper orientation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRhere Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Not going to say it's impossible, but I will say it's highly improbable that you installed the clutch disc backwards. Just can't see the raised center portion of the clutch disc fitting the flywheel recess enough to allow one to get the pressure plates bolts started with out some serious arguing going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 That raised portion of the clutch is installed facing the PP. So then that is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hsoj Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 (edited) I'm sure this isnt it, but if the trans you got had a damaged input shaft then it might not let the pp travel away from the flywheel and be sticking. By bolting it on it gave it enough pressure to hold. You greased it up a bit right? I'm doubting that though but metal is strange.... like over cleaned stainless nuts and bolts fusing together while trying to tighten them. Oh, and thank you! Happy Thanksgiving Ya'll! Edited November 27, 2014 by Hsoj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 (edited) Car is in a shop with a relatively known and trusted mechanic. I say relatively because my car has seen a garage and so I don't know the mechanics around me very well. This guy is around the block from me and is an old school guy that definitely does know his stuff though. So long story short, yesterday he shows me the cracked and bent clutch fork. How I did not notice this is beyond me, but there it is. Cracked on each side. On my first go with the adjustment when I got the car buttoned up I wound up tightening the adjustment all the way eventually in my trials, so that's plausible. Today he calls and tells me I have the wrong clutch kit installed. I'm having a hard time comprehending this as that was one of the first things I double checked when I first had issues. The part number on the box is the same part number of the 4wd exedy clutch kit I ordered from rockauto. Could it be the wrong clutch placed in the right box? Who knows. I'm heading over to the shop to see what "differences" he's seeing between the clutch I put in and the original. At first he claimed it was a FWD clutch but I told him that was unlikely as I'm pretty sure the FWD trans has a different spline count on the input shaft than the 4wd ones, correct? The saga continues. 350 quote for removing and reinstalling the trans to install the other clutch fork and now an additional 305 for the "special order" proper clutch. Will update later. Edited December 4, 2014 by l75eya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 thanks for keeping us posted .... from what I have learned of EA82 - FWDs still the smaller diameter 200mm ? Unless the FWD is a turbo, found they use same clutch as 4WD NA and turbo 4WD in 225mm !! Could be wrong though .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 RockAuto sent me the wrong clutch. The 4wd clutch for an 87 GL is listed as an exedy part number 15008. The box I received from them was indeed a 15008. The friction disc included in that kit, however, is not the correct disc for the kit. In other words, the wrong box was in the wrong box. That's what led to me bashing my head against a wall and working 4 weekends all day taking my car apart and putting it back together and now having to shell out money to a mechanic. Unreal. If you look closely at the original friction disc that was in my car, and the one I got in the 15008 kit, there are small differences. Number one, the offset (raised portion) of the friction disc is different. The one from rock auto is higher. If you lay each clutch disc on the ground with the raised portion facing the ground so the friction material is in the air a little, the original one from my car will slide underneath the one from rock auto. Substantial difference. Also, despite the fact that the spline count was correct to fit on the input shaft, the clutch disc from rockauto does not slide smoothly over the input shaft. It is as if the diameter of the hole that the splines on the transmission slide through is the slightest bit smaller than the original clutch. This is why I had an absolute BEAR of a time getting the transmission mounted and unmounted. All these issues, coupled with my lack of experience for certain things to look for and to look at, led to the absolute worst nightmare I've ever had while wrenching on my car. And an expensive one. The nightmare is almost over. I'll update this once again with pictures probably tomorrow of the original parts and the wrong parts I got sent. I'd have taken pictures tonight, but my phone was dead. *le sigh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Loyale Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I have had Rock Auto send me the wrong stuff before too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hsoj Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Well at least it got figured out. You're almost out of the woods. I hope they at least refund your clutch and good on you for taking the initiative to try to get it done proper yourself and knowing when to take it in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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