Why Won't it Start? IT STARTS!!!!!

[garner]

Status report:

 

Wiring complete, everything works (as far as I can tell). IG and FP relays switch, fuel pump operates, computer talks to me in diagnostic mode.

 

Currently I am getting an all systems normal report from the computer(ie no trouble codes)

 

The fuel pump is putting out pressure. I rigged up a guage that only reads to 30psi and the fuel pressure pegs this guage.

 

There is spark, nice strong blue spark

 

Injectors tick (as far as I can hear) I even hooked up a spare injector to the harness and held it while turning over the engine and could feel it click.

 

problem is, I smell no gas. If I turn over the motor for 30 seconds with the pedal to the floor, I would think I'd smell some fuel. It seems that the fuel is not getting to the injectors?

 

potential problems:

 

1. plumbing into and out of spider intake is wonky. I had to just figure this out as I didn't have an example to check. Anyone have a good diagram of the fuel line routing to a spider intake? I understand fuel goes in, to all injectors, then to the FPR, then returns to tank. I ditched the evap canister btw. As is, when I disconnect the return line, I smell no fuel nor do I feel any pressure as I would expect from a loop.

 

2. FPR is wack. What do these things do if they go bad, stop flow? or stop restricting the flow? My theory is that perhaps if the FPR is bad and it is stopping flow, there could be air trapped in the lines and thus the fuel can not get to the injectors. Not a great theory but it's all I've got...

 

3. 4 really bad injectors? seems unlikely. Any good simple methods to check injectors or the comtrol harness. I tried a test light but i don't think the pulse is long enough to make a regular 12v lamp light (maybe the pulse is less that 12V?)

 

4. Gremlins? or maybe these damn things

 

help a brother out. Any suggestions hair brained or otherwise will be gladly accepted. This thing is so close (or maybe not) to running it's driving me nuts.

 

 

garner

[rallyruss]

when you go WOT there is what they call "clear flood mode". basicaly it cuts down the fuel. try part throttle.

 

I would get a better gauge. if the regulator somehow got stuck closed it would have verry high fuel pressure. never seen it but thats what you would have. if you do not have a guage pull the return off and make sure its flowing good back to the tank.

 

timing? rember the basics.

[garner]

Thanks Russ,

 

I'll try part throttle.

 

when i pull the return line I get nothing, no fuel, no air pressure. I may have it plumbed wonky. Actually that is seeming more likely.

 

Anyone got a good drwing or diagram of the fuel line plumbing on a spider?

maybe I'll draw up what i have and people can tell me where I'm wrong

 

Timing belts are perfect, or atleast I'm getting good compression (140psi cold). The disty is close but its difficult to use a timing light when the engine is just turning over by the starter. I got the right teeth engaged in the camshaft and the disty set to the middle,

 

should I try the old starting fluid test?

 

bring em on

 

garner

[snowstormer]

i had an87 gl spfi car that had sat for about 6 months before i got it without running.(blown tranny).

 

 

when i first tried to get it going it would crank and crank but not fire.

 

sprayed a little gas and starting fluid in her and then it would fire just till it ran out of what i sprayed in.

after about 8-10 tries it ran on its own just fine, i figure it just took that long for it to finally get gas through the injectors.

 

i would try it just to see if you get it to fire.

[grahams repair]

have you checked the valve timing could the crank to valve chain have skiped A tooth best of luck to you . Big T grahams mobile repair. grahamsmobiletune@yahoo.com

[garner]

after about 8-10 tries it ran on its own just fine, i figure it just took that long for it to finally get gas through the injectors.

 

i would try it just to see if you get it to fire.

 

yeah, I wonder how long it would take to "prime the system" I'll try the starting fluid and see if I get fire.

 

I feel very confident in my timing belts and I think my compression #'s support them being right on.

 

garner

[archemitis]

after i got about that far, i ended up having the firing order off. have you made the throttle cable work good yet? or did you switch to an efi one?

believe it or not, in the end i pumped the gas pedal and it clicked to life. the fpr should be at the end of the flow like you said you have it hooked up. 180 out on the disty? do you have a cat thats soaking up all the gas preventing you from smelling it?

its gotta be something simple, hope you figure it out soon.

[garner]

Here's how I set the disty, #1 cylinder at the top of the compression stroke (I had the spark plug screwed in just a bit and listened for the pssshhh as I turned the flywheel, removed the spark plug to confirm the pistons tdc location.) Then set the disty in to have the rotor in ignition on cyliner one, (pointing back toward fire wall) I think this is right???

 

Another question: What would happen if the FPR were put in backwards? (hypithetical situation of course, I would never do anything that dumb)

 

Archemitis, now that you mention it, My cat did smell kind of funny when he jumped up on the bed last night

 

garner

[garner]

Ok, I'm a Moron....

 

stupid garner

 

On the fuel lines, I had the in and out reversed, swapped them just for fun and presto, fuel pumps through the system

 

Now, with very little assurance that I can do anything right, I am quadruple checking my timing.

 

Anybody got a good method of assuring proper disty placement. I have definately found tdc on the compression stroke of clyinder 1. Now I'm supposed to make sure the timing mark on the disty gear lines up with the number 1 pin on the cap?

 

garner

[calebz]

Yup, number one to tdc, then make the rotor point at number one wire on the disty cap and your good to go.

[garner]

Is it just me or is it impossible to use a timing light while turning over the engine with the starter? I'm getting a flash but it's less a strobe light and more a paparazzi flash bulb effect. Bottom line is I can't see a damn thing on the flywheel.

 

Also, the #1 on the distributor is the one furthest back(closest to the fire wall) correct?

 

I'll get this damn(beloved) thing running any day now

 

garner

[garner]

Update,

 

Now I have finally tried the starting fluid test and bang, it fired up for a second!!! The first time I've heard this motor make noise on it's own!!!

 

Good new, it seems spark is ok and timing is close enough

 

Bad news, seems fuel is not getting delivered to the cylinders.

 

I will try the starting fluid test a few more times to see if it is priming the fuel system, perhaps I have some air that I need to get out of the system?

 

My newest question relates to the TPS. What exactly does the feedback from the TPS do to the computer. ie, does the TPS influence fuel injector pulse?

 

thanks for letting me ramble

 

garner

[rallyruss]

TPS is a rather important input to the ECM in regards to fuel delivery.why would you ask? do you have a suspect?

 

I still think there is a basic fuel delivery problem. if it kicks over with the starting fluid you either have no(low) fuel delivery, Egr stuck open, unmeterd air leak.

[garner]

I don't really suspect the TPS, it just occurs to me that maybe I need to test it.

 

The injectors and harness pass the tests in the FSM.

 

I removed the EGR system when switching to the spider. I left the solinoid in place so the harness had something to plug into there.

 

Right now, I have the intake all apart, I assumed it would atleast try to start in NA format. I hold the flapper on the air flow meter open to give the computer the impression that there is air

 

I just found my stethascope so I might be able to hear the injectors if I do the click test.... We'll see

 

could it just take a long time to work all the air out of the fuel lines? I bet it's been cranked over a total of about 3 minutes (in 10-15 sec at a time)

 

garner

[rallyruss]

I doubt that air is the issue. you need to get a good pressure reading on that fuel.

[garner]

Update:

 

Ok, how about this theory....

 

If the FPR is bad, there is no regulation of the fuel pressure, thus it is high. FSM says up to 70ish. With fuel pressure higher than injectors are designed for, injectors are "held closed" by the very substance they aim to dispense...

 

Once I checked with my stethascope, I was not hearing injector clicks... I could hear clicks on a spare injector hooked up to each harness connecto and bam, click click click!!!

 

Still no click on the installed injectors, until I removed pressure from the system. Then, click click click!!!

 

I think the FPR was bad, swapped it for a spare (huge pita) and I am closer now. Now, with a small shot of starting fluid, it will "run" for maybe 15-20 seconds then die. much better than the 3-5 seconds before...

 

I might just be down to tuning now. I will reconnect the intake and let the air flow meter actualtually give the brain an accurate signal ( I'm holding it open with a screw driver at the moment and think it may be flooding it)

 

anyhow, this is how I spent my memorial day weekend, how bout you?

[garner]

Anyone have any thoughts on my "too much fuel pressure" theory? i.e. too high fuel pressure and the injectors are essentially held closed by this pressure

 

It' still not running under it's own power but it is much closer.

 

long winded bump

 

garner

[rallyruss]

I will bite.

 

mabey. I suppose anything is possible. I know for a fact that chevy vortec injectors will not open unless they have enough pressure.

 

this of course is different. if I am not mistaken the injector guts are like a needle and seat shape. I dont thing too much presure would hold them closed. have you checked voltage at the injectors? the resistor is hooked up correct?

 

your killin me here whats the actual pressure? I am about to send you a gauge to use just so I can find out what you have.

[garner]

I Know, I know I need a real gauge. I have ordered one as I can not find a decent one in town for less than $40. I got an in line that I'll mount under the hood. Cheaper than the test type gauges and might come in handy latter.

 

I stumbled upon my theory just trying to troubleshoot without a guage, two things made me come to this theory.

 

Injector under pressure=no click

Same injector disconected from fuel line (no pressure) = CLICK

 

Also, after putting in a spare FPR things are different now. before, with a shot of starting fluid it would "run" for just a couple of seconds

 

after, with a shot of starting fluid, it will "run" for 15-20

 

I have tested everything in the wiring department multiple times and feel pretty confident that I'm good there. I did have to splice different ends onto the engine harness to make it mate up with the rest of the harness. I tested these things and double checked my double checking

 

I'll let you know what the fuel pressure is as soon as I know

 

garner

[garner]

your killin me here whats the actual pressure? I am about to send you a gauge to use just so I can find out what you have.

 

I finally got a gauge, only had time to plumb it up and get one quick read

 

65 psi!!!yikes I tested pressure right before the regulator, theoretically this is the pressure at the injectors as well.

 

I'll do some more tests tonight and report back

[archemitis]

this system will start with the tps, the maf, the o2 sensor, all unplugged!

as long as you have power to the computer, its gotta be your signal wire from the negative side of the coil.

the spark part of this system is just like a carb, and the fuel injection, is just that, fuel.

i bet you picked the wrong shielded wire to use as a signal, maybe. mine was yellow. and grounding the shielded wrap is inportant too. grounds!

 

its something simple, keep pokin around, its gotta be wiring.

[archemitis]

and, on the too much fuel thing, thats not it, i dont think. mine will open with the return line pinched, and the fuel pump is runing at 90 psi.

 

them injectors dont know they need to open

[garner]

In the splicin' o' the harnesses, I did have to extend the signal wire, I am confident that it's the right one but I extended it with non-sheilded wire. I thought that would just make my radio noisey, maybe ther's more to the shielding than I think... I did ground it last night. I'm sure thats a good idea but was not my silver bullet.

 

I failed to mention earlier something that might be my problem... I don't have the boost and vacuum switches and thus don't have them hooked up.

I wonder if they are N/C or N/O switches. If they are N/C, I bet that's my problem. If I am assuming correctly, fuel cut is actually injector pulse interuption....This seemed like a sort of different question so I started a new thread:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17242

 

Maybe someone will test the continuity o fthe switches and or try unplugging them and seeing if the car will start or not..

 

Russ, I've got 65psi at the injectors. and 70ish straight off the pump....

 

 

garner

[garner]

I had three bad injectors.

 

I finally did the test I should have weeks ago. I unbolted the injectors and pulled them out of the intake. Left connected to fuel so I could see if they were spraying. Only one was. I swapped the other three with some really ugly looking spares and bam! she starts right up!!!

 

I curious, is ther any difference between 85 injectors and 88 (that came with the spider intake I got) 1stsubaruparts.com shows only one injector for the 1800 but it is odd that atleast three of the newer injectors (which look perfect) wouldn't work.

 

Thank you all for your help on this. I knew it was something simple it just took me weeks to check all the complicated stuff and bang my head against the wall before I actually did what is probably the most no brainer test I can imagine.

 

Now to make it run well.....

 

garner

[rallyruss]