91 Loyale Fuel pump failure - replace with Ford pump?

[jsyme]

Fuel pump replacement:

 

Hello all! 

Question after story time.

 

Context:

1991 silver Subaru Loyale stock 1.8L EA82 5-speed manual trans w/ stick 4WD button wagon w/203,000 miles.

 

I took my kids up into the hills for a great day for July 4th. We went Up and down in the Rocky mountains and everything worked great. We probably made up to about 9500 feet and back down with no trouble. she did much better with the AC turned off B.T.W. (Colorado Springs is around the 6000+ ft above sea-level mark.)

 

However, On the return, only 3 miles from home, I stopped to price out some news brake pads and discs (I'm still working out the kinks) and the old bird would not start again. Being stranded at the parts store isn't the worst thing to happen, so going through all the motions of the big three: Spark, Compression, and Fuel I found that a little squirt of starter fluid fired the Loyale right up. ok fuel.

 

We got towed home an hour later and still no change. Around 10 PM MT at night I tried again, and she fired right up without hesitation. She ran smooth and clean, idle, 2,000 RPM, idle - it's like she looked at me incredulous that I would think any differently. The classic "What?" look.  

 

It was cooled off.

 

Yeah - I'm swapping that pump, maybe even getting a spare eventually.

 

Local part sourcing:

O'Reiley's want $200 USD and included a "lifetime" warranty and has it in stock.

Advance Auto wants $209 with a 30 day warranty on their Carquest brand with a day delivery

AutoZone wants Subaru OEM and charges a whopping $375 and will have it in 5 days (pre-pay only).

 

Online parts:

 

RockAuto.com

airTex fro $140

Delphi for $142

Spectra Premium for $143

Carter for $151

 

Partsgeek.com

http://www.partsgeek.com/fbt8fb1-subaru-loyale-electric-fuel-pump.html 

 

1990 Carter $82.33

 

1991 Aitex $149

1991 Delphi $153

1991 GENUINE W0133-1605415 $262.48

1991 Spectra PREMIUM 409-05488687  $301.33

 

So... after all that mess. I want to install this:

http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1987/ford/f150/fuel_delivery/fuel_pump.html

 

1987 Ford F150 Fule Pump for $44 USD because it's a fuel pump... not a computer, and this is a Subaru, not a BMW or Mercedes.

 

For trivia BMW recommends one to replace TWO pumps: the high pressure and the high volume pump at the same time because... BMW.

 

I'll be breaking into the service manual to check the voltage, line pressure, wiring etc tonight.

I'm asking for opinions. ready go...

Edited July 7, 2016 by jsyme

[john in KY]

I would first replace the fuel filters. I believe there are 2. 

[Victor.Vector]

Looking forward to seeing what you find here.

[Rust]

The ford pump works fine in a subaru. Your problem may not be fuel pump related however.  Be interesting to see what happens.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Rust

[ducunee]

If running a weber be sure to check fuel pressure

[jsyme]

New information:

 

Locations:

* Fuel filter is right in front of the driver under the hood and behind the driver side strut tower. It can be removed with a #2 philips screw driver and a hose removal pliers. $ 6.50 USD for the filter

* The fuel pump itself is under the car in front of the passenger side rear wheel, but not along the edge, it's much closer to the drive shaft and exhaust in the center.  It's above a plate being held on with 3x 10mm bolts (medium or deep socket), and the pump is attached to that plate with 2x10mm nuts (shallow socket). + 2 wires going into the harness.

 

The fuel pump itself certainly is in-line and NOT in the tank. Until I slipped under the car and saw it, I still had doubt.

 

I replaced the fuel filter under the hood. I'm unsure of a second filter (sorry John in KY). Results: no change. It'll try to start and immediately quit. Still works with starting fluid.

I thought I could test a Ford pump, but that hasn't happened yet.

 

I also found another cheap 3rd party pump for sale if it comes to that...

Autobest F4323 10 in stock for $47 bones USD. with a week ground delivery shipment.

    * 1990 Subaru Loyale 1.8L H4 Turbocharged 

http://www.partsgeek.com/gw9371s-subaru-loyale-fuel-pump.html 

I haven't ordered it yet as I'm certain the pump relay isn't getting the message to the pump.

 

Usually I would expect the pump to charge the fuel pressure when I turn on the key and it's not.

 

I've checked all my fuses (under the steering wheel) and they are all good 15 and 20 amp.

* naturally aspirated SFPI engine

 

Where might the fuel pump relay be?

I found this: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/78350-fuel-pump-and-relay-location-ea82/ 

 

I'm considering going to find those green plugs and check the engine codes... more to come.

Edited July 7, 2016 by jsyme

[jsyme]

_{a gentlemen (bluelightning6) over at 2carpros said}

"Fuel pump relay is located on right of steering column, right of ECU (blue connector)"

https://www.2carpros.com/questions/subaru-loyale-1991-subaru-loyale-fuel-pump-relay--2 

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/158156-91-loyale-fuel-pump-relay/ 

"The fuel pump relay is located on top of the ECU.  You remove the ECU then you'll see a single philips head screw.  Remove that and the relay drops down."

 

Keep in mind my car DOES RUN on starter fluid... 

 

 

more from the same post...  (thanks robm)

"I thought the relay was part of that cluster of 4 buried deep in the dash above the fuse box?  I think it is headlights, fan and FP relay?  I could be wrong, it has been a while.  Access is horrible.

 

If you plug the green connectors together and turn on the ignition but don't start the engine,  you will be able to hear the relay and pump cycling.  If you hear the relay clicking, but the pump doesn't buzz, then try running a wire direct from the battery to the red wire on the the pump, with a wire to the chassis from the black wire.  If that doesn't make it run, then it is the pump.  Otherwise it is the relay.  The relay can click, but not connect, or it can just not click at all.   You can get access to the fuel pump wiring inside the car, under the rear seat on the passenger side, where the wiring goes through a grommet in the body.  Remove the grommet, pull the wiring inside, and there is no crawling under the car required. 

 

There is no ground through the ECU on these ones.  The fuel pump black wire goes direct to ground. 

 

The relays are very flaky when old.  I had one that was very flaky, it would quit when too hot or too cold.  I had a wire run from the battery ready to connect if it failed, and I ran it like that for months.  Every few days I would have to use the wire, then next morning, start the car as normal."

[Dee2]

For $47 it wouldn't hurt to have a pump on the shelf as they do go out. 

 

When mine was acting flaky, I learned that rapping on it with the handle of a screwdriver could get it working again.  If that is the result then it is definitely time to replace the pump.  May take more than one try.  If it doesn't make any difference then perhaps the relay is in fact the culprit.

[robm]

I am happy to have been of service. My pain was your gain, I hope.

 

Did you check out the relay etc, with the green connectors yet?  It really is very easy.  I wouldn't buy a pump until you check the relay, whack the pump, etc.

 If you did, what were the results?

[jsyme]

Update:

Last night I checked all the relays (there are 4) under the drive side dash. I

pulled down the computer and revealed the 4 colored connectors.  I removed
them each and checked each relay and they all passed the click test and voltage
with my meter.

 

So hitting the pump with the handle of my jack works.  The fuel pump spins right up!

 

I used my old Power Probe (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED) to connect to the pump + and - itself
and it worked as well.

It still runs like crap, surging and sputtering, but at least it's running, but not drive-able...

 

It's not my daily driver so I have time to mess with it and the weekend is coming up.

 

Additional information:

I've been all over the web looking for descriptions of each relay or even a wiring diagram. There are four colors green black blue and grey. All the relays are the same x4 and could be used to troubleshoot each other. They all turn on when the key is energized, prior to start. 

Picture:   hmm no option for pictures. 

Edited July 8, 2016 by jsyme

[jsyme]

Some where I read that the 1991 Loyale with automatic seat belts (mine) has some kind of kill switch relay right behind the fuse box. 

This would be an additional troubleshooting break point as it’s inline with the fuel pump relay and the ECU ??

I can’t seem to find that article again, but I’m certainly willing to look at it.  (Maybe even take it out)

 

I’ve been doing all this without a wiring diagram and it feels like slow motion.

 

edit Saturday...

I found the link: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/3868-90-loyale-fuel-pump-question/ 

Edited July 10, 2016 by jsyme

[NICALM]

Here is a great write up on the relays. 2 of them are for the headlights and the 3rd is for a/c.

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/87523-how-to-swap-the-old-roundie-relays-with-standard-bosch-relays/

 

At the time of the write-up the 4th (green) relay was un labeled. Good to know it's for the fuel pump.

[jsyme]

RESULTS:

 

I took some time today to talk to the guys down at NAPA parts... All the generic pumps were very low pressure in the $45/each price point.

I bought a Ford Fuel Pump for $77 local and a few fittings (reducer) since the in and out ports didn't match the Subaru OEM pump.  

Additionally it took way too much time to assemble the wiring harness (unsolder the old and connect to ring / eyelet for $100 out the door with hose clamps hose pinchers and 1 ft of high pressure hose... 

I didn't go in asking for this model - only an equivalent to the Subaru OEM pump.

 

1987 Ford F150 V8  was my request.  They came back with a Delphi FD0029  / CFD0029 / 11616-1 

specs: http://www.opticatonline.com/part/delphi-fd0029-electric-fuel-pump 

 

There is a lot of misinformation saying these wagons only need 2.5lbs/in of pressure. Probably for the carberated weber version.

So it was a conversation to have Napa check a few different places to find the correct high pressure pump (or equivalent) it nearly 45 lbs to be correct.

 

The OEM Subaru part has a right angle for hoses and everything is out of the way for hose lengths.

The new Ford pump does not have a right angle and it makes it quite too long installed in the car.

 

Good = the car is back up and running. Yah!

BAD = the pump is STUPID LOUD!   Like turn up your radio to half total volume to wash out the droning sound.

 

I think it may be due to not being 'primped' air pocket..?  

hose corners may be too tight pinching the flow?

 

WOW is that pumps loud! If I had it to do again I would wait and pony up the full price of the nice quiet Subaru fuel pump. 

[Dee2]

Good work on documenting the problem solving. 

 

Bummer on the pump noise.  Best option may be to shop around for a used Subaru pump.  When I replaced mine a few years ago, I got a used one for about $25 as I recall.  Seems like Subaru used that same pump in many models so the boneyards can typically scrounge one up.

[jsyme]

Update:

So this is embarrassing but I'm past it now and you can learn from it too, (if not, just enjoy a free chuckle).

 

The pump is doing quite well after a good friend got a look at it and returned a stink eye to me. What he observed was too short a hose leading to a kink on the inward low pressure side of the pump. -sigh-

 

I added another foot of fuel line to make effectively a service loop around the top of the pump and back into the inward side.  Now there is plenty of slack without any kinks in the line, and it's routed where nothing could grab it from road debris perspective, and the pump is MUCH quieter. MUCH QUIETER!

 

204,000 miles.  I expect to replace it again @ 400,000 miles.

Thanks to everyone who read though this and commented.

[Craigar]

Wow! serious old time American ingenuity, economy and tenacity.