EJ251 heads on EJ20G block?

[matt167]

Since I'm planning on replacing my engine in my '01 Forester. I've been looking at the JDM engines.

 

EJ20 SOHC is $650 which is fine

EJ20G Turbo ( I know it's older ) is $800 complete

 

I know that the 20G heads/ intake will not work in my car but also that they have some value that is recoverable.

I know my ECU can be tricked with a voltage clamp and then an FMU can be run for low boost levels..

 

I know that 92 vs 99mm bores it's really all wrong but the fire ring of the 2.0 gasket ~should~  not be in the combustion chamber. Can anyone confirm that?  I'd guess any 2.0 gasket vs a SOHC head would be sure. Before I spend $800 on an engine. I've read one reference on the Forester forums that it does work but I want to be sure. I know EJ20 SOHC heads are available on ebay and can be shipped to the USA but the cost is over $500. They are rebuilt heads tho so that wouldn't be 'that' bad. It throws my budget way off though.

 

Alternitivly, can the EJ205 be made to run on an '01 ECU?

[86BRATMAN]

Ej251 chambers are 97mm wide, you will have an extreme mismatch using them on a 92mm bore. The ej20 gaskets have a bore diameter of 93mm.

[matt167]

That's what I was thinking.. So the only choices are either. EJ222 heads w/ modified turbo manifold or SOHC 2.0L heads which are $$ to get seperate from an engine here in the states. However rockauto is getting $300/ head plus core for EJ222 heads. So these at $260/ head without core are not a bad deal. http://www.ebay.com/itm/CYLINDER-HEADS-SUBARU-EJ20-EJ203-SOHC-FOR-FORESTER-IMPREZA-LEGACY-2-0-LTR-/181290419394?hash=item2a35c044c2:g:ovYAAOSwuYVWoM1r

 

 

The only other thing that I could do is buy the N/A EJ202 and swap in some EJ205 pistons/ rings, and source some take off WRX parts for the turbo and manifolds.

 

Or do a USDM low mile engine. an EJ257 short block right from the dealer would be the bomb but even tho that's actually fairly inexpensive. It's expensive considering I only want to run 6- 8 psi and I might not even intercool.

[86BRATMAN]

The ej222 heads have the exact same combustion chamber as the 251 heads, so those won't work for you either. You're going to be limited to ej20 heads.

 

 

You can run ej205 heads on the 01 ecu, but you'll need to use the stock ej251 crank timing gear and find a left hand intake cam gear from a jdm v5/v6 ej205 or ej207 for the trigger pattern to match what the ecu needs.

[matt167]

So a JDM V5/V6 EJ205 would really be what I should look out for then? Because then I would just need to swap the EJ251 crank gear and my EJ251 intake and everything else the same.. I knew there had to be a cam wheel that could be used to make the 205 heads work on N/A ECU.

 

JDM V5/V6 EJ205 are the non AVCS versions right? I know EJ207 V5/6 are non AVCS but EJ207 is out of budget/ need for this swap

[86BRATMAN]

With a full v5/v6 ej205 swap you wouldn't need to swap the crank gear. They have the 6/7 trigger pattern like what your ecu is expected to see already. The intake manifolds will swap over with a couple minor mods, you'll have to extend the wiring for the coolant temperature sensor at least because it's on the opposite side of the crossover.

 

And, no neither engine came with avcs until the v7 models.

Edited July 11, 2016 by 86BRATMAN

[matt167]

That's what I thought about AVCS. I had no idea the older ones were compatible with our earlier '99-'01 harnesses. I know '02 Forester is same as '01 but I'm pretty sure its different electrically...

 

So this one should drop right in then? http://www.ebay.com/itm/02-05-SUBARU-IMPREZA-WRX-2-0L-4-CAM-NON-AVCS-TURBO-ENGINE-ONLY-JDM-EJ205-/191919791247?hash=item2caf4f9c8f:g:q~MAAOSwnNBXYZvl&vxp=mtr

What about keeping the EJ205 manifold and swapping the wiring harnesses and fuel rails?  Only asking that because I know the turbo manifolds are shorter in the back to fit the intercooler.. I'm cool with extending a couple wires as long as everything fits up.. The only thing that I know would be a hicchup would be the Map sensor, and building a sealed box out of plastic or something to house it ( with a mounting tab and hose connection ) would not be too big of a deal.. But the 251 manifold would solve that.

 

Isn't there issues with some SOHC cam gears not being right for others? couldn't that be an issue for mine, or is mine ok because it's a M/T '01?  I only need to be sure because it's the only way it will work for me, and the engine is $1k. Or is that break due to 2002+ being a break year?

 

I should note that I've also located a Forester turbo hood that will fit mine.. Would be awsome if I could bring a car that never came to the USA over here.. Everybody wants R-STI clones or WRX Impreza swaps. Almost nothing for the Foresters even though the JDM/ everywhere but USA turbo Forester was basically a slightly detuned WRX

Edited July 11, 2016 by matt167

[86BRATMAN]

The issue with using that manifold is that your existing injectors are top feed and that manifold is set up for sidefeed.

 

The problem with the sohc gears is a year/engine thing. Starting in 03 on some ej251/3 engines Subaru used the 31-1-1 trigger pattern like the ej222, ej205, and ej255/7 engines have. Almost every jdm phase 2 ej20 engine I've swapped have the 31-1-1 pattern too. It's just easier to advise people to use their original gears when doing an engine swap than it is to take a chance on them being different.

[matt167]

But then wouldn't the engine be wrong for mine if it did use the 31-1-1 trigger? What trigger pattern does the USDM/ JDM V7 EJ205 have? Just trying to make heads or tails of it. but from the sounds of it, will work out great.. From what I gather the V5/6 is '99-'00 since their '02 stuff came 1yr earlier than USDM. And since our '01 electronics is closer to their '99-'00 electronics, this would be why the cam trigger is the same..

Edited July 11, 2016 by matt167

[86BRATMAN]

I've never seen a usdm ej25 from 99-04 using the 31-1-1 pattern, only the 99-01 ej222.

 

V5/v6 uses 6/7, and the same style sensors as your existing engine.

 

V7+ ej205/207 uses 31-1-1 like the 02+ usdm ej205.

[86BRATMAN]

If you look into the people using the v5/v6 swaps in place of usdm ej205's you'll see they all have to change their cam/crank gears and use the stock intake manifold because they aren't compatible with the usdm ecu.

[matt167]

Cool. that's what I thought you meant. Now I know and I have my shopping list. Possible I can make an order by the end of the month for engine/ trans.

[matt167]

Were the '96-'99 Legacy Outbacks factory turbocharged in JDM? Wondering about the hood scoops ability to 'scoop air' for an intercooler and a possible OEM look. Since hoods at the junkyard are $30. I can buy one as a hood scoop donor. Just cut the scoop/ mounting out of it and place and patch into my Forester hood.

[matt167]

DBL post

Edited July 12, 2016 by matt167

[86BRATMAN]

They were turbocharged overseas in the gt-b and rs. But the scoop is fairly small on them, and doesn't do a very good job of cooling the intercooler. If it was me I'd go for a 2.5rs or wrx hood as a scoop donor. You can find the splitter, which is the piece that seals to the intercooler to help efficiency, pretty easily for them. If I remember correctly the gc era wrx and forester turbo hood both used the same splitters. There is a guy on rs25.com that has them for sale pretty frequently, screen name is jdm Gary.

[matt167]

Gary's actually got a Forester Turbo hood that would fit mine but it's missing scoop and got a pretty decent tweak on the side IDK if I could fix.. If he still has it when I'm ready for it I'll grab it off him as a scoop donor but the hood needs to be steel for it to work. I know factory WRX hoods are aluminum so the only way I can use one of them is a cheap steel aftermarket

[matt167]

Had an idea.. I have a '99 EJ25D intake that still has red injectors in it. Are those side feed/ able to work with the JDM EJ205 manifold/ rails? Pretty sure they are side feed.. But then again if the JDM EJ205 has TGV's it's not gonna work anyway.

[86BRATMAN]

V5/v6 don't have tgvs, and those red injectors will work in place of the yellows that will be in the Jdm engine.

[matt167]

Is the oil/ coolant lines for the turbo by passable? I think I'm going to install the engine ( on a turbo crossmember ) as N/A until I can get things togther as it is gotta be running in a week. Engine, trans and diff swap. I'll just run the EJ251 manifold/ injectors/ air assist system in the meantime.

 

I'm going to modify the 205 manifold with injector bungs welded above the factory injectors in the runners, and control them as secondary injectors with Microsquirt. That way I don't have to mess with the stock ECU and try to fool it and. run larger injectors. The Microsquirt will also run the timing along with knock control, so it should be a fail safe.. It's kind of a 'backwards' way of thinking but tuned correctly and running a voltage clamp on the MAP, there will be no chance of a CEL ( Ny Emissions testing ).. Plug in-without codes generally means pass.

Edited July 21, 2016 by matt167

[86BRATMAN]

If you have access to a pair of ej25d heads you can remove the 14mm head bolt that plugs the galley where the oil feed banjo bolt goes on the turbo heads. There is one in each head, use one for the oil feed galley and the other for the coolant feed galley. Simply put a cap over the turbo oil drain fitting and clamp it down.

 

If you don't have easy access to those heads message me an address and I'll pull them from a pair of junk heads I have and send them to you.

[matt167]

Actually got a spare EJ25D so that's no problem..

 

Will the EJ25D timing belt  work for the EJ205? I have one new in box from when I was gonna put 25D heads on a 22E. and never returned it. It's a Gates belt.

Edited July 21, 2016 by matt167

[matt167]

Well. I just placed an order. Almost caved and just bought another 230k mile 2000 Outback with EJ252/ 5spd for $800. It ran silent but I still would have to get it home, pull engine/ trans and then deal with parting out the rest and then expect to re ring/ bearing along with new HG's due to high miles. Mint interior and the engine is clean and silent ( I would refresh but it's clean enough it might be a replacement ).  I can give contact info to anyone who wants it. A small dealer is trying to sell it and it's not really worth putting on the road. it is rough where it shouldn't be tho that's what he's selling it for.. It's perfect for parts and he was gonna let me rid him of it for $800 not worrying about title. In the end it was the cheapest way to re engine my car, but not what I wanted really

 

 

ANYWAY..

 

I have on order, a JDM Non AVCS EJ205, from a pre 2001 which should have the 6/7 trigger system as noted. along with a JDM 4.44 Turbo 5spd.. If the engine turns out to be a later revision by a slim chance ( Opposed Forces show a 3 month 'gap' where it theoretically could have the 31-1-1 triggers still using the V5/V6 waste spark ignition EJ205 ).. I have located the correct left side int cam gear for the older 6/7 from a european supplier who will ship the item here in 3-7 days, for about $20 more than a WRX gear from the local dealer.. All in all that did worry me, but not after verifying stock and the part is easier to get than I thought and cheaper too..  I think it's that HUGE parts house that Wheeler Dealers have used in the past.