Supernoobie Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Hey everybody! We have a 2001 Legacy Wagon 2.5 SOHC and I want to have the head gaskets, valve cover gaskets, thermostat, timing belt,water pump,tensioners and idlers, and the oil pump resealed. I called the dealer we bought the car from and asked them how much for this work and they acted like I was asking for them to raise the Titanic. Then off the top of her head (the service dept lady) says about $2500 bux! LOL does this sound right???? I spent years in an auto shop and have tools and an engine hoist, I just dont have a garage at the moment as I just moved. I really dont wanna do this job on my back, in the driveway lot, on jack stands...But geez.....I was willing to pay say 1000-1400 for this work but not 2500. I went and talked to a local shop and they said 1400, but I was trying to stick with a Subaru dealer for the work. So here are my questions... 1. How much is a fair price for Subaru DEALER to do this job? 2. Stock head gaskets or aftermarket multi layer gaskets???? 3. Stock timing belt tensioner,idlers,belt,water pump, oil pump seal or aftermarket? 4. The car has never overheated or went dry on coolant, I really dont want to have the heads surfaced...I am in the boonies, and quality machine work is non-existent here. Thank You! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Labor is expensive. We charge $1950 for headgaskets but rarely only do this job. We are cheaper than the dealer. The dealer IS NOT where you want to have this done. They do not use the correct gasket and they have some other bad practices that lead to a poor quality job. They do not resurface heads and they don't remove the engine. They use a 3M white zip-wheel to clean the mating surfaces. You will need to have the heads resurfaced - there will be some grooving from the fire ring on the head gasket. We do this on a sheet of glass with 150 grit sanding cloth. Find a reputable Subaru shop. Someone on this forum may know one in your area. Typically we recommend doing a piston ring replacement and piston skirt knurling if you can find a shop that does it. And you don't want to reseal the oil pump, replace it with a 10mm pump. The factory 7mm on that model is not sufficient. You want the head gasket ending in 770 part number. It's for the later turbo models. We charge $2750 for a re-ring and with the oil pump it would be around $2940. That's what needs to be done if you want it to last. GD Edited February 13, 2017 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 first, other than maybe headgaskets - any GOOD mechanic should have no trouble doing that work for likely hundreds less than, and as good as, a dealer. if you ask for a shop recommendation near your town in a new thread, someone may know a good Subaru-experienced mechanic. The HGs neead proper resurfacing on the heads and likely a multilayer steel gasket upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 oops, beat by the expert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 how many miles on this engine? might be better to do the work on a lower-miles junkyard enigine, then swap. particularly given the info above about oil pumps. Suppose your rod bearings are 'almost' done-in? You wouldn't want to put $2k into your engine and have a bearing fail in a few weeks. If you have a lot of miles and have had overheat incidents, could be risky to do all that work on the present engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec03 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 The two quotes that I got by dealers for my 02 were $2500 and $3500. And this was before "extras" like the muffler falling apart etc. I didn't have it done by the dealers for reasons that GD posted. When I was told that they used wizz wheels and didn't take the engine out, I moved on to an Indy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 If it's coolant - just change the coolant and add Subaru's coolant conditioner, it's $2.50 a bottle and required for that engine. It stops most initial headgasket leaks on OEM factory installed headgaskets. Done right it's a pricey job as GD mentioned. Price varies wildly based on what all you have replaced and what brand parts you use. $1,200 - $1,500 is bare mininum for headgaskets only. (Unless you find some real slim charging off the grid type of place) $2,000 is getting into a quality job by an independent. $2,000 - $3,000 for a very thorough job/dealer. Did you call the Sube Shop? There's also a dealer in Bridgeport, maybe there would be some more favorable situation there? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 Thanks for the replies everybody! Today I called Larry Myers in Bridgeport WV and they said 1300-1500 which includes OEM head gaskets, or head gaskets of my choosing, this does not include resurfacing of heads, as they said they rarely resurface heads. Resealing the oil pump, removing and loctiting oil pump screws, timing belt and idlers/tensioners, spark plugs, water pump, valve cover gaskets..... General Disorder-When I let shops do my work I always get the feeling I am paying alot more money for a job I would do a lot more thoroughly myself. The car/motor has 109k on it and we have owned it the entire time...I wouldnt think piston rings would need replacing at this mileage? especially since we kept up on the oil changes. I just cant swing 3k repairs for this car, I just cant justify that expense for a car with no book value. Maybe I should just sideline this car until I buy a new home with a garage, then I can take my time and do it myself. Then I can make sure the heads are surfaced, upgrade the head gaskets, upgrade oil pump, and everything gets done properly and I know its done right.....The money I save doing it myself will allow me to justify the repairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 It isn't that the rings need to be replaced. It is that the oil control ring and drain back holes become clogged with failed non synthetic oil (carbon). The reasons for this are several and I'm not going to go into it here. You can also apply some knurling to the skirts to stop piston slap on that engine. It will eliminate all oil consumption and restore mileage and performance since oil in the chamber will lower effective octane and piston slap will set off the knock sensor - both cause the computer to pull timing. The oil pump will not need to be resealed or the screws tightened on that model. That only affects older models. But the 7mm pump is insufficient and should be swapped with a 10. GD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Is there anything that will clean the oil ring without taking apart,like marvel mystery oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 It isn't that the rings need to be replaced. It is that the oil control ring and drain back holes become clogged with failed non synthetic oil (carbon). The reasons for this are several and I'm not going to go into it here. You can also apply some knurling to the skirts to stop piston slap on that engine. It will eliminate all oil consumption and restore mileage and performance since oil in the chamber will lower effective octane and piston slap will set off the knock sensor - both cause the computer to pull timing. The oil pump will not need to be resealed or the screws tightened on that model. That only affects older models. But the 7mm pump is insufficient and should be swapped with a 10. GD Thanks for the solid info GeneralDisorder. Very helpful and exactly the type of info I was hoping to recieve when I signed up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Is there anything that will clean the oil ring without taking apart,like marvel mystery oil? Nope. It takes about 2 to 3 hours to remove it in my 180 degree spray wash cabinet. And often that's not even enough and we have to work a 1/8" drill bit through the drain back holes to clear them. The carbon is hard like a BBQ briquette. No snake oil down the filler neck will help with this problem. Believe me I wish it were possible. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Headgaskets, valve adjust, resurface and all timing components are what I would consider minimum. That's what I would require if I were repairing one but I'd suggest a few more items while I'm in there. Keep in mind that where GD lives that car is valued way higher than it is here. It could possibly sell for twice its value there. and for good reason, they're far less likely to be on the road in another 5-10 years here due to rust and snow. So you hesitate with good reason. Go with the Subaru Coolant Conditioner. Subaru requires it and that car was part of a 7yr/100,000 mile extended headgasket warranty. 8 years ago you could have gotten them replaced free. It is unbelievably common to go this route and if the directions are followed on a well maintained engine efficacy is solid. Few dealers resurface and none of the Subaru ones around here do. I've been to the machine shop that does the resurfacing for local dealers (including Subaru, if you ask them) and they throw heads on a belt sander last I was there. Which ends up with better end results depending who they have run it. I've posted ugly pictures of Subaru heads from that shop and GD should have some funny things to say about the method. Lol. I don't know of another machine shop so I just started doing it myself. Which you can easily do as well, it's surprisingly simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) Nope. It takes about 2 to 3 hours to remove it in my 180 degree spray wash cabinet. And often that's not even enough and we have to work a 1/8" drill bit through the drain back holes to clear them. The carbon is hard like a BBQ briquette. No snake oil down the filler neck will help with this problem. Believe me I wish it were possible. GD good grief!!! That's a beastly process! It's like heads and timing chains - that stuff is baked on there, it's not coming off easily. How likely is that condition on frequent dino oil changes and well maintained, lightly driven? If other areas show lack of carbon build up is it reasonable to assume an engine is less likely to have those issues? Edited February 14, 2017 by grossgary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 If I am gonna go thru all that, I may as well put some fresh pistons in there. I am gonna get under this car and pressure wash it and see just how bad things are leaking. I dont mind going through this engine thoroughly. Its my mothers car, she rarely drives it. Once I buy a new home with a garage I can take my time and do the job right. I would feel much better knowing I did the job, rather than some hack with a belt sander!!! Wow, I never heard of that. I will just do the glass/sandpaper method to clean up the surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) Unless you run synthetic it's inevitable. The only reason the old 2.2's didn't exhibit oil consumption is the oil control ring is twice as thick and the drain back in the skirt is a 3" long x 1/8" wide slot cut into the skirt instead of four 1/8" holes. 150k miles on a 2.5 is the same as 300k miles on a 2.2 with regard to how much blockage of the oil control system has taken place. The carbon will build up just the same in both engines it just takes a lot longer to be a problem on the 2.2. Synthetic will never do this since it has much higher heat tollerance.GD Edited February 14, 2017 by GeneralDisorder 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I learn so much here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 16, 2017 Author Share Posted February 16, 2017 Unless you run synthetic it's inevitable. The only reason the old 2.2's didn't exhibit oil consumption is the oil control ring is twice as thick and the drain back in the skirt is a 3" long x 1/8" wide slot cut into the skirt instead of four 1/8" holes. 150k miles on a 2.5 is the same as 300k miles on a 2.2 with regard to how much blockage of the oil control system has taken place. The carbon will build up just the same in both engines it just takes a lot longer to be a problem on the 2.2. Synthetic will never do this since it has much higher heat tollerance. GD Maybe I should look into a low mileage 2.2 and do a conversion?? It would be much better for me to just drop in a new/used engine than deal with going all the way into the pistons on this 2.5.......Does anybody make a full stainless engine to tailpipe performance exhaust kit for the 2001 Wagon? Mom puts such few miles on this car the stock exhaust has been patched 2-3 times and now the heat shields rattle as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThosL Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 I'd also keep in mind that if the compression comes up the crankshaft or other effects may do bad things, it happened to me and others I have spoken to. 2.5 replacements are hard to find, maybe because of the difficulty of finding a good one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 I'd also keep in mind that if the compression comes up the crankshaft or other effects may do bad things, it happened to me and others I have spoken to. 2.5 replacements are hard to find, maybe because of the difficulty of finding a good one. Yea, if I am gonna take pistons out, knurl skirts, clean oiling holes, etc....Its gettin new rod bearings and maybe crank bearings as well. I never do anything half way. Then that would snowball into finding forged pistons...then....then....and the sickness goes on.... I am gonna keep a lookout for a smashed up 2.2 car with low miles. Is the 2.2 swap fairly drop in?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 The 2.2 that would fit is the phase II 2.2 made from 99 to 01. Besides being rare and expensive they burn oil worse than the 2.5. Completely different than the phase 1 2.2 which will not fit in your car. GD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 What he said. The only EJ22 that works in your car is the later 99-2001 phase II which is more closely akin to the EJ25. Otherwise yes they are plug and play. A few years ago they weren't expensive though around here. Again the difference between where GD lives and rust prone areas. Rust devalues the cars and sends them to the scrap yard, this process happens quicker and more often with the lower value vehicles which is what the Phase II EJ22's came in. Price may creep up as supply dwindles though, that happens sometimes. I bought an low mileage one from a reputable place (they pull immediately and store indoors, unlike anyone else local). It was $600, there were cheaper ones available, and EJ25s go for $1,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 It seems I am running into the cost vs value issue every which way I look. I am gonna start looking into selling honestly (disclosing leaky engine) and just adding some of my personal cash on top of that to get mom another car. Any thoughts on which coolant additive I should use? I would also like to know if there is any oil conditioner that will help as well? Stuff that is available at chain auto stores like Advance or Autozone preferred please. Thanks so much for all of your help so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 I bought an low mileage one from a reputable place (they pull immediately and store indoors, unlike anyone else local). It was $600, there were cheaper ones available, and EJ25s go for $1,000. Those engines are a can of worms. They have the same bad ring design and drain back issue as the 2.5 but you can't buy rings outside of the Subaru dealer for $200. Despite the catalogs claiming they use the same rings as the older 2.2..... they dont. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernoobie Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 Dang, so the only way to make this car right is tear down this engine and go thru it. GD have you used any aftermarket head MLS head gaskets, aftermarket forged pistons, and upgraded rings? 10mm oil pump as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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