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1991 Loyale Having Cooling Issues After Work on Cooling System


kmpdx
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Hi Guys,

 

So I recently did a bunch of work on the cooling system and it is heating more than I expected. I will list all I did to it first and then describe the situation.

 

Work done:

Thermostat replaced with mfg thermostat

All hoses except the two to the heater core replaced

O ring on tube connected to lower radiator hose replaced

both intake gaskets replaced with Mfg gaskets

radiator drained, pulled, outside cleaned (caked in dirt/bugs), and backed flushed with garden hose for 10 min

New radiator cap

both drive belts changed (inner belt is squealing a little in the morning and probably needs adjustment)

 

System burped twice. 

The second time was due to the little hose between the thermostat housing and block's clamps needing adjustment after leaking. 

 

Issue Description:

So I drove it on its first long drive yesterday and it was up to Mt Hood. As I was climbing the thermostat began to climb above the 1/3 mark steadily. By the time I got to Mt Hood Meadows, the gauge showed to nearly 80% of the way to the red. As i drove back down it stayed close to 1/3 of the way but once I hit traffic it went to 2/3  of the way in stop and go traffic. When I  got home I put my spill free funnel and burped the system the aforementioned  second time. I did get some bubbles but it did seem at the end of burping that after reving the motor I could always get some "soda like bubbles" to come up from the radiator.

 

Drove it tonight 8 miles home and went on freeway to purposely put some stress on the system. The gauge went to about 2/3 of the way up which seems hot. I did not notice the system heating like this prior but also i just put this work on it so perhaps I am much more focused and I think I would have noticed it heating this much.

 

My Suspicions

1)Perhaps the new radiator cap? I will pressure test soon

2)maybe the radiator flow? It came with the car but has been pulled from a donor automatic due to the transmission cooling lines present. How can I know? Going to perform a pressure test cold and then hot. I have a pressure tester that I have yet to use.

3) the electric fan is not working. Does not come on when A/C engaged or when the system gets hot. Going to address but does not explain the heating on the freeway or at sustained load/speed.

4) something to do with the new intake seals or new belts?

5) Something to do with the OEM thermostat installed?

6) An issue with the (ulp) head gasket?

 

Car was losing coolant due to leaks on driver-side intake gasket and o-ring before. Does not seem to be losing any now but it will take a week or two of monitoring to be sure.

 

I just got new tags yesterday and really want to fulfill those two years! Any ideas?

 

Thanks!

kmpdx

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Guys,

After writing all this I realized that I the easiest step is to pressure test the  "new" radiator cap. Guess what? It didn't hold pressure! The cap I removed did pass the test so I placed it on the radiator and will report back tomorrow after driving. 

Thanks!

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I've been running 2 ea82s with zero pressure caps for a few years with no problems. But I'm not in high altitudes.

 

Keep monitoring for a week or 2.

 

Is the engine driven fan working?

 

Are all of the fine fins still attached to the radiator tubes?

 

My flow test for radiators - out of car, fill with water with one end down. Cap ports so it will fill up. release the main outlet / inlet that is at the bottom. The water should fall out very quickly. Almost as if it's just a tank. Repeat in opposite direction. Note, it's helpful to have done this with a known good radiator so you have a reference.

 

The beginning of headgasket leaks can be tiny. I've had them where it took a week, checking even time before starting the engine. Check the level by paying close attention to the recovery tank level, and squeezeing the upper hose listening for the giggle pin and air gurgles. Don't open the cap unless you have to add water. Air should get less each cycle, not more. Check and re check for tiny leaks, both cold and hot.

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Hey DaveT,

The fan driven belt turns via the drive belt. Other than that how do I check its function?

 

What is my definitive test for head gasket failure? Coolant loss with no visible leaks? Air in the system?

 

I wish it were as easy as a radiator since it is so easy to change. If I continue having the heating issue with no coolant loss is that when I try that?

 

Where does a temp gauge stay ideally? 1/4 range on gauge?

 

Thanks,

kmpdx

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Ok, that fan is working unless it is making horrible noises. I wanted to know it was there.

 

The gauge varies from car to car. I have had 1 that stayed around 1/8, one that stayed around 1/4, one that stayed around 1/2. Actually, more than one of each. The important thing is where has it always stayed? And even if it changed a bit with a new thermostat, it should stay at it's new position.

 

Detecting the beginning tiny headgasket failure is a process. Before every drive from a cold start, check the level in the recovery tank, and the air in the upper hose. Take notes. Over the course of a week, note trends.

 

Running zero pressure can help sort this out in that a pinhole leak where the coolant evaporates before you can see it won't loose coolant anywhere near as fast.

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UV dye for coolant system is a good idea also. Checking for leaks both while hot, cold, and in between.

 

If the temperature starts going above normal, that's bad. Time to stop and check levels and air. Running over normal temperature while low on coolant accelerates headgasket failure.

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I personally would be suspicious of the Radiator.. the condition is unknown if it from a donor that ya stated..

 

New OEM thermostats will make you wonder..because we are used to seeing the same reading eveytime we drive.

 

I did work had the same weird temp reading most I seen mine go is a little above half just less than a 3/4 but it always dropped back down.. it now sits at just above 1/4with a New OEM thermostat and supposedly new Radiator from Champion.. I only say that because I can see on the lower corners the new paint is not sticking to the old rust.. so far it works been in there for I think almost a yr and a half

 

Before I Replaced the Radiator "Donor" from the wrecking yard after my work it took a looong time to drop back to 1/4

Another important thing... if you are making your own coolant do not use tap water to mix your coolant.. trust.me i did alot of research on cooling systems lol! Hrs and hrs and hrs ya want distilled..

 

This link will show you what a failing headgaket/s looks like.. thanks again DaveT and grossgary and others..http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/155547-my-compression-test-resultsea82/?do=findComment&comment=1332752

Edited by Len Dawg
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Thanks for the replies. I think I will monitor the coolant levels very carefully and the upper hose. I am not getting any bubbles in the reservoir. I will perform a cold and hot pressure test on the system in the next week or so. I do wonder about the radiator because as I was taking apart the system, it was apparent that someone had run some stop leak through the system which could inhibit the channels in the radiator. If I do not see a drop in coolant over time, I may try to change the radiator. I do mix my own coolant but only use distilled. Even a small amount of ions act like molecular bb's banging the metal surfaces in the system. It always trips me out when people use tap water.

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I think most didn't make it through high school to do that science experiment...lol! Me being one of them.. ;)

 

You will know for sure come summer.. that's when it went just to the red going up hill and wouldn't drop past 1/2 in the temp box coming down the other side.. for me..it was alright for winter mechanically but didn't produce alot of heat for cabin..

 

Keep'er Rolling!!

Len ????

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So started car up after work tonight. Leaked coolant at o-ring, then coolant housing, and upper radiator hose!

 

I am thinking that pressure builds up is due to the fact that the radiator cap now holds pressure and that a blockage radiator is the problem.

 

When I got home the radiator was only hot on the passenger side and cold on the driver side! Furthermore the connections are brass and there is green oxidation on parts of the radiator near the inlets indicating oxidation inside the spilled over hoses.Also the stop leak somebody put in before probably contributed to blockage.

 

Also the upper hose is bloated like a balloon and HOT.

 

Think I need to pull the trigger on the new radiator.

 

Wouldn't be the new OEM thermostat, right?

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upper hose sounds bad.  If it was new, it's compromised now.

 

With pressure, yes, anything not sealed well will be more likely to leak.

 

How quickly did the leaking show up?  It normally takes time for the engine heat to build enough to start expansion, where exhaust gas leaking through head gaskets is immediate.  If the leak has advanced enough - tiny beginning failure can be very slow also..

 

The blockage if any has nothing to do with the leaking.  The water pump can't make enough pressure to have any problem with being blocked.

 

Radiator hot on one end and cold on the other does indicate no / low flow.  Note, it won't flow until the thermostat opens.


A little green on the brass connections isn't unusual.

Stop leak is a worry.  It would be very good to flow check the heater core also.  If that is blocked, it can interfere with the thermostat opening as things warm up.  You could rule it out by using a loop of heater hose in place of the heater core.

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I am going to burp it again tonight and give it a chance to build up air again. Having air in the system from exhaust gases (or air from somewhere) would be the only way that the system could pressurize so quickly, right? Would testing the coolant for gases be useful at this point? Also when I first start the car I do hear a sloshing in the heater core. Not sure if that is significant. Definitely going to spend some time diagnosing this to try to pinpoint exact problem.Like I said, a cold and hot pressure test soon too.

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I would get a new radiator.. then I would leave the rad cap on and look inside the resivor for a stream of bubbles 1 about every so often if idiling ... if hot they will appear alot faster like all the time that sir would be a head gasket failure situation..

 

I had investigated my problem backwards.. whereas I did the head gasket but had heater issues and cooling issues later on which led me to buying a new radiator :) cheap radiators no pun intended.. $ pays to get a new one instead of the wrecking yard..

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Hearing coolant slosh in the heater means significant coolant loss. That's not good. That means shut it off and get it full.

 

The tests from what I have seen on the forum many times, often doesn't give accurate results, at least until there are many other signs making it obvious that the failure is the headgaskets.

 

The procedure I wrote previously is how I determine if the headgaskets are failing. Run zero pressure, very and re verify no other leaks, known condition of radiator and heater. If all is well, any small amount of air gets worked out over several cycles. If air stays, or increases, especially if the recovery bottle gains fluid, not looking good for headgaskets. If coolant keeps going away, some other leak is more likely.

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If the radiator is the brass/copper style have it cleaned and leak tested. Should cost about $75 or so.

 

I use Able Radiator, or Superior Radiator on my side of town or there is Mac's Radiator - might be closer to you.

 

I could get you a new one for about $125

 

You cannot make any causal determination without first ensuring the radiator is operational.

 

If you want to bring it by my shop I could use my $1k Snap-On thermal imaging camera to see if the temp gradient across the radiator is uniform.

 

GD

Edited by GeneralDisorder
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Thanks everybody.

I am leaning more and more towards the radiator. With the cap that holds pressure the temp stayed right around 1/3 on freeway driving on the same drive that got pretty high the other night. After driving I parked and not sure if this is normal but the sides of the radiator were hot and the fins were not. Like I could put my hand on it without it burning me.

 

It was weird that this time when I started it it began to weep from the lower radiator hose. It's like every spot has had its turn. Still might hit you up regarding that radiator. 

 

Amazon says this radiator does not fit:

https://www.amazon.com/Spectra-Premium-CU935-Complete-Radiator/dp/B000C7VZTQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488169622&sr=8-1&keywords=loyale+radiator

Will it? Or do i actually need this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Spectra-Premium-CU1731-Complete-Radiator/dp/B000CKR4OI/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1488169889&vehicle=1991-13-65-20---8--3199-122-1----2-0&sr=1-1&ymm=1991%3Asubaru%3Aloyale&keywords=cu1731

 

DaveT, I am going to keep an eye on all signs of head gasket because my suspicions are still there too but it is going to take a little more time to determine it it is leaking or not.

 

Thanks for all the help guys!

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Yes, it takes time.  Carefully watching can help avoid causing it to get worse while you hunt down regular leaks, etc.

 

Fins can be cooler than the ends, as they are thinner, and loose heat quicker than the tanks.

 

I have often found that after installing a new hose, the clamps need another twist of the clamp screw to reseal after a run cycle.

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Well. I think it probably is head gasket after all. After burping it again last night it gets a slow yet steady stream of tiny bubbles that increase with frequency if the engine is reved. Also I feel that the coolant smells of exhaust. Is there any other explanation as to where steady bubbles could come from?

 

This air entering the system would explain the air in the upper hose, the cold start leaks to to displacement by the air, and fluid distributing weird to the radiator if there were an air pocket.

 

Is there any use to trying a temporary solution like a gasket sealer formula? I do plan to fix this but would preferably wait until weather is better. I suppose I can get around town OK for now but not trying to risk taking it to the mountain again.

 

Is there any other explanation for those bubbles?

 

Thanks.

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Well. I think it probably is head gasket after all. After burping it again last night it gets a slow yet steady stream of tiny bubbles that increase with frequency if the engine is reved. Also I feel that the coolant smells of exhaust. Is there any other explanation as to where steady bubbles could come from?

 

This air entering the system would explain the air in the upper hose, the cold start leaks to to displacement by the air, and fluid distributing weird to the radiator if there were an air pocket.

 

Is there any use to trying a temporary solution like a gasket sealer formula? I do plan to fix this but would preferably wait until weather is better. I suppose I can get around town OK for now but not trying to risk taking it to the mountain again.

 

Is there any other explanation for those bubbles?

 

Thanks.

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I have limped them around with mildly failing headgaskets, while resealing a spare engine. Forget stop leak type stuff. It is meant to keep 15psi liquid inside, not 100s of psi hot gasses out. Best chance is make a zero pressure cap. Before every cold start, check level and air, add water if low. Short drives, not hours. If it is to the point where it pushes a lot of coolant into the recovery tank, that's about the end of it. It will get progressively worse. Any over temp will accelerate the problem. I'd consider removing the thermostat also.

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I think that is what the other person already tried...In this link was my delima.. the pictures I took have white paint marks where the gasket failed,but importantly exactly where a water passage/jacket there was no paint marker needed as it should have been ovbviousphttp://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/155547-my-compression-test-resultsea82/?do=findComment&comment=1332752

Edited by Len Dawg
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Thanks for all the advice guys. I am going to just drive it in town for now and at the end of April I will pluck it and get it on a stand in the garage and do to work. I wish I had a spare ea82 but I think that if any more old cars/parts show up around here that my wife may have me living in the Loyale, lol. I did look at the photos before and that is what convinced me that the fix may be possible. The car was taken care of before i got it and I have all records so I think it is worth it if I can get it done right. If anything changes I will post it in here but really I will probably be starting a new thread once I get the motor out.

Thanks!

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Hey guys.

Still trying to confirm that it is a head gasket leak. I did a cold an hot pressure test with mixed results wondering what next step should be.

 

Cold pressure test:

It frigging leaked again from where the o-ring  seal is above the water pump ( I think). I will confirm this when I can have more time to lift alternator out and retest. Hoping to not have to put AC compressor. 

 

Hot test:

Did not last long but o-ring did not leak(I guess maybe it expands once it warms?) and pressure did not rise rapidly. I got from 10-12 psi but then coolant rose up the plastic tube connected to the pressure tester. The only way to get it down the pressure tester was to pressurize it 13-15 lbs. The engine couldn't get warm enough to open the thermostat.

 

Basically both tests were inconclusive. Should I even bother with these?

 

I am totally willing to rebuild the head gaskets but just want to really confirm that that is the issue.

 

If I am running the motor with a spill-free funnel and coolant and letting it get to temperature and getting tiny bubbles in coolant is that enough confirmation that it is head gasket? The reservoir never bubbles which makes me wonder. SHould I run the pressure tests differently. Like let the car warm, then cool enough to depressurize then run again to get pressure with thermostat open?

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