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Broken oil pump bolts


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28 replies to this topic

#1 Arty

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 01:34 AM

I come to you all with great shame, so please go easy on me.

 

I managed to snap two of the mounting bolts for my oil pump today. This was after torquing them all down and obviously after applying the gasket maker. All the other bolts are fine. So here is my question-

 

Can I make it by with those two bolts missing? I can't help but think that the other bolts are sufficient in terms of tightness and location to keep the broken bolt holes sealed with the gasket maker in place. If I CAN get by with it, how long do I have? I really can not go without this car for any real amount of time. The car is lightly driven about 20 miles a day, give or take.

 

Please tell me I'll be alright until I'm able to go in and fix everything... please?



#2 lmdew

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 07:22 AM

The bolts are holding in in place but also snug against the sealing surface.  

 

Did the bolts break or did you strip the threads out of the block?  If they broke you may be able to get them out with reverse twist drills or drill and easy out.  If you stripped the threads, heli coil the damaged hole in the block.

 

You are right there now.  If you put it all back together you will have lots of work to get back down to the pump.

 

While you can most likely drive it, it depends on which two of the bolts broke.  It's a roll of the dice.  It's Always better to Do It Right the First Time!



#3 montana tom

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 07:44 AM

If you just snapped the bolts they may come out very easily . Do it right ... remove the pump and deal with those bolts now. Imagine if it starts to leak on your 20 mile drive ... what if it pumps all your oil out in a minute or two ?  It's not worth the risk.



#4 heartless

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 08:15 AM

how much force were you putting on those bolts??? recommended torque is only 4.7 ftlbs - basically nothing.. a smidge over just snug.

 

Agree with the others, get the damaged bolts out now and replace them.



#5 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 11:05 AM

If you stretched them and broke two during installation then replace them all. If more of them decide to let go when it's running you may be looking for a new engine. 

 

GD



#6 Arty

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 01:49 PM

I was able to get one snapped bolt out... not the other. The other will not budge. No amount of extraction tools did the job. One of the tools broke in the broken bolt. No idea what to do now.



#7 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 04:35 PM

get 2-3 successive sizes of left-twist drills? file the end of the bolt flat enough to center punch, drill CCW with the smallest drill first.

 

use the next larger sizes if needed. sometimes the force and heat and vibration will move the bolt.



#8 lmdew

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 05:31 PM

If the thread extractor broke in the bolt, no drill will work.  Which bolt is it?  The extractors are hardened and you can not drill them.  



#9 Arty

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 05:36 PM

get 2-3 successive sizes of left-twist drills? file the end of the bolt flat enough to center punch, drill CCW with the smallest drill first.

 

use the next larger sizes if needed. sometimes the force and heat and vibration will move the bolt.

I tried many different ways, nothing worked. I'm starting to wonder if there was possibly something wrong with the threading in the bolt hole before I put the bolt in

 

 

If the thread extractor broke in the bolt, no drill will work.  Which bolt is it?  The extractors are hardened and you can not drill them.  

 

Yeah, I've decided that the extractor is part of the block now. The bolt is the second to bottom on the left side (if you're facing the front of the car) on the oil pump. I can't help but think that there is a way to work around a missing bolt, especially on something with so much torque already holding it down and with such a heavy seal around it like the oil pump's gasket. But I guess we'll have to wait and see. I hope it's fine. Otherwise it's time to order a short block.



#10 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 07:27 PM

You can extract anything with a carbide burr. Tool steel is no match. If you break off carbide in the thing then your screwed. Have to EDM it out. 

 

I don't even own extractors. High quality left hand drill bits and carbide burrs are all I use. If that don't do it, it goes down the street to the EDM at the cylinder head shop. 

 

GD


Edited by GeneralDisorder, 22 October 2017 - 07:29 PM.


#11 idosubaru

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 07:34 PM

I wouldn’t worry about it. 4 our of 5 bolts, it’s not going anywhere. The 5!lug wheels will drive all day Long thousands of miles with 3 lugs and all that rotational force. I would t even sweat an oil pump.

I mean - I’d also attempt to repair it and highly favor that but I get where you’re at on this and it’s got a good enough chance of succeeding that is try it if I had too.

I’ve drilled those ten mm bolts out like that before. Drill a hole just adjacent to and touching the broken shaft right into the engine block and make it just big enough you can bang the bolt into the “new” adjacent hole enough to wiggle it out. It’s crazy and I’ve never seen anyone else do it and I had blocks to pre-drill to make sure I wasn’t hitrjnt anything internally but metal. Then repair the hole or use a large bolt, etc.

Throw away every bolt extractor you own - they are the most worthless equipment in a garage. If a bolt comes out with those things it’ll also come out by some other means. They’re okay and have a place in a well controlled machine shop but such institu and garages and most practical situations. Again if one I them gets it out it’ll come out some other way. I through mine all away about 10 years ago and have been all the better for it.

#12 Gloyale

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 08:21 PM

From the description of the location it is one of the 2 directly around the oil pump main output where the O-ring is.

 

This is the worst case.

 

What I would do is remove the pump.  clean the area well.  using leather or fiberblanket, make a protective layer over the oil pump cavity and make sure to block off the suction pipe and the output hole.

 

using a mig welder w/ co2 argon mix......place a washer over the broken bolt.  make a quick spot weld in the center.  might take 2 qick zaps to build up the tack.  Then place a nut onto the washer, and repeat to attach nut to washer and bolt head.  LET IT COOL!!!  after 7~8 mins, remove by turning nut with wrench.

 

I defintely would not just run it like that.  Recipe for disaster, main oil pressure loss.


Edited by Gloyale, 22 October 2017 - 08:22 PM.


#13 Arty

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 08:46 PM

From the description of the location it is one of the 2 directly around the oil pump main output where the O-ring is.

 

This is the worst case.

 

What I would do is remove the pump.  clean the area well.  using leather or fiberblanket, make a protective layer over the oil pump cavity and make sure to block off the suction pipe and the output hole.

 

using a mig welder w/ co2 argon mix......place a washer over the broken bolt.  make a quick spot weld in the center.  might take 2 qick zaps to build up the tack.  Then place a nut onto the washer, and repeat to attach nut to washer and bolt head.  LET IT COOL!!!  after 7~8 mins, remove by turning nut with wrench.

 

I defintely would not just run it like that.  Recipe for disaster, main oil pressure loss.

 

Actually, yeah, you're right. Crap. I didn't even think of that for some reason. Thank you for pointing that out, because I never would have seen that.

 

There are two more problems with this, though-

 

1- The bolt is long gone by this point. It's just the back end of the extractor now.

2- I don't own any welding equipment and, for reasons I can't really get into, I can not be even remotely close to welding equipment.

 

That being said, I think I've more or less resigned myself to the fact that I'm going to need to look into getting a new block soon. I was planning on actually buying an engine to rebuild just to have around, so maybe this is the reason I needed to do that. This particular engine is already in pretty rough shape, so if this is what does it in, then at least I know what happened.

 

 

Meanwhile, I have a '95 EJ22 with over 200k miles on the clock rusting out with a giant hole between the IAC valve and block and it chugs along like a tank. Funny how some things go.



#14 Arty

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 08:49 PM

I wouldn’t worry about it. 4 our of 5 bolts, it’s not going anywhere. The 5!lug wheels will drive all day Long thousands of miles with 3 lugs and all that rotational force. I would t even sweat an oil pump.

I mean - I’d also attempt to repair it and highly favor that but I get where you’re at on this and it’s got a good enough chance of succeeding that is try it if I had too.

I’ve drilled those ten mm bolts out like that before. Drill a hole just adjacent to and touching the broken shaft right into the engine block and make it just big enough you can bang the bolt into the “new” adjacent hole enough to wiggle it out. It’s crazy and I’ve never seen anyone else do it and I had blocks to pre-drill to make sure I wasn’t hitrjnt anything internally but metal. Then repair the hole or use a large bolt, etc.

Throw away every bolt extractor you own - they are the most worthless equipment in a garage. If a bolt comes out with those things it’ll also come out by some other means. They’re okay and have a place in a well controlled machine shop but such institu and garages and most practical situations. Again if one I them gets it out it’ll come out some other way. I through mine all away about 10 years ago and have been all the better for it.

 

 

Yeah... they are pretty pointless. But it was good for the placebo effect. I have actually had extractors work a couple of times, but never in a car.

 

But you know what works surprisingly well for stuff like this? Vampliers. I knew last night that I'd be ok with two broken bolts because enough of them was left sticking out that I could lock my Vampliers on them and pull them out. And I was right. But the one on the oil pump, man... it put up a fight and it won. One of the only times my Vampliers failed me.

 

Buy Vampliers.



#15 idosubaru

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 08:56 PM

Can you weld or beg someone ?

If you can’t weld...then Disassemble tow and Pay someone

Call around and ask if any machine shops would do it for you on the car. For some it may be so easy they may not charge much. I’ve gotten lucky before and had machine shops work on stuff insitu for various reasons, and do it very reasonably, there’s done great people out there. I’ve even helped friends 1,000 miles away calling shops until one says they’ll look at it and they fix it cheap. Its worth a few calls. $50 tow and $80 to remove would be well worth it.

In the rust belt corrosion and sheared and previously mangled or problematic fasteners are commonplace.

Another crazy thing I’ve done - drill the hole on the oil pump housing a little bigger and drill and tap a smaller bolt hole right next to the original bolt. I’ve done that before for light torque 10mm bolts. Get a high grade bolt clearly.

Totally unorthodox and I can’t recommend it, never heard of anyone else doing that but I have and its worked. But I’m willing to try, if I’m not failing then I’m not pushing the limits to see what’s possible what’s not and why not. LMAO.

But that’s all easy for me to say. If it’s your only necessary transportation and finances are tight you shouldn’t be gambling and should repair it properly.

#16 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 09:06 PM

You just need a small carbide burr, a dremel (90 degree preferred if they make such an animal) and some patience. Carbide will chew through the tool steel extractor. Then heli-coil it.

 

This is a pretty simple repair. You just have to put in the time to slowly grind out the contents of the hole. 

 

I've never liked the nut welding trick on 1/4 or 6mm fasteners. Too dang small and it's easy to scorch the surface, partially melt the surrounding aluminium, etc. It's usually cleaner to go with the mechanical extraction regardless of how much longer that takes. 

 

GD


Edited by GeneralDisorder, 22 October 2017 - 09:09 PM.


#17 Arty

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 09:10 PM

Can you weld or beg someone ?

If you can’t weld...then Disassemble tow and Pay someone

Call around and ask if any machine shops would do it for you on the car. For some it may be so easy they may not charge much. I’ve gotten lucky before and had machine shops work on stuff insitu for various reasons, and do it very reasonably, there’s done great people out there. I’ve even helped friends 1,000 miles away calling shops until one says they’ll look at it and they fix it cheap. Its worth a few calls. $50 tow and $80 to remove would be well worth it.

In the rust belt corrosion and sheared and previously mangled or problematic fasteners are commonplace.

Another crazy thing I’ve done - drill the hole on the oil pump housing a little bigger and drill and tap a smaller bolt hole right next to the original bolt. I’ve done that before for light torque 10mm bolts. Get a high grade bolt clearly.

Totally unorthodox and I can’t recommend it, never heard of anyone else doing that but I have and its worked. But I’m willing to try, if I’m not failing then I’m not pushing the limits to see what’s possible what’s not and why not. LMAO.

But that’s all easy for me to say. If it’s your only necessary transportation and finances are tight you shouldn’t be gambling and should repair it properly.

 

I was considering adding a new bolt, but I don't want to compromise any more strength from the block in the process. 

 

But this car isn't our only source of transportation and money is ok. But, yeah... saving the hassle would be nice. There is a machine shop super close to me. Maybe if I go bother them long enough they'll consider letting me drop it off there and taking care of it for me. I've done this timing belt thing enough times that I could probably drive there (maybe a mile and a half at the most), tear it down to where they need, have them do their thing, and then put it back together to drive home and totally finish then. Who knows.

 

All this over a freaking bolt. A single bolt. One of my cars uses lasers to match the speed of the car in front of me while the computer changes the suspension settings thousands of times a second. And then there's this bolt...



#18 Arty

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 09:14 PM

You just need a small carbide burr, a dremel (90 degree preferred if they make such an animal) and some patience. Carbide will chew through the tool steel extractor. Then heli-coil it.

 

This is a pretty simple repair. You just have to put in the time to slowly grind out the contents of the hole. 

 

I've never liked the nut welding trick on 1/4 or 6mm fasteners. Too dang small and it's easy to scorch the surface, partially melt the surrounding aluminium, etc. It's usually cleaner to go with the mechanical extraction regardless of how much longer that takes. 

 

GD

 

My Dremel did nothing for me, unfortunately. All it did was bounce around the hole. I was worried about causing more damage to the already bad area. I'll call the machine shop tomorrow and see if they're willing to not be jerks and help me out. Though I usually find that some guy with a Subaru and a stupid problem is generally treated like garbage at places like that, and I am just not at all in the frame of mind to deal with that right now.

 

Maybe if I just buy a really big c-clamp...



#19 Fairtax4me

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 09:11 PM

Permatex Ultra Black. It won't leak.

#20 Arty

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:12 PM

Permatex Ultra Black. It won't leak.

 

What about ultra gray? it's what i have right now



#21 Arty

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 08:14 PM

Permatex Ultra Black. It won't leak.

 

To update- I went out and bought Ultra Black, so thank you for the suggestion. But I will say that Ultra Grey was shockingly strong. It blew my mind. So if Ultra Black is stronger, I have a feeling I'll be just fine. I will be applying it tomorrow.



#22 idosubaru

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 09:33 PM

Be sure to apply it carefully so as not to get sucked into the pump and then lodged in a passage where oil flow will be restricted.

#23 Arty

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 11:31 PM

Be sure to apply it carefully so as not to get sucked into the pump and then lodged in a passage where oil flow will be restricted.

 

Yeah, that's always my biggest concern. Especially since you can't see if it went on correctly after you put the pump on. This fear will be nagging at me for a very, very long time.



#24 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 11:29 AM

All you need is a wafer thin smear. This isn't a SBC china wall..... just lightly with your finger.... just the tip and only for a minute. 

 

GD



#25 Fairtax4me

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 03:04 PM

Yep, just a thin smear. If the broken bolt is on the side with the o-ring there's little chance it will leak as long as the o-ring is new OE and properly seated.

The Ultra black has a stronger resistance to engine oil, and seems to have just as strong or maybe stronger bond as ultra grey.




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