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3.0 H6 decent? also have HG issues?


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34 replies to this topic

#1 kennycoulter

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 08:54 AM

I can't seem to copy and paste....close to me:

2003 Legacy Outback Sedan 3.0 with hydro-locked cylinder.  Automatic.  Make offer.

Would this be worth looking into?



 



#2 john in KY

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:13 AM

Remove the spark plugs. spin the engine over to clear the cylinders, reinstall spark plugs and then make a decision.  Engine could have bent connecting rods. 

 

If the price is dirt cheap and the car is overall in good condition, buy it and just replace the engine. 


Edited by john in KY, 11 December 2017 - 10:14 AM.


#3 idosubaru

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:27 AM

if it's not rusty buy it and swap in another engine.

 

they do leak, though they tend to start at much higher mileages than EJ25's and it would seem they less frequently have this issue.

 

otherwise they're great candidates for an easy and reliable 300,000 miles, basically all they need for 300k are:

replace the serpentine pulley bearings ever 60k (30 minutes and $20 in parts, super easy).

valve cover and oil cooler gaskets. 

plugs, air filter, oil changes. 



#4 kennycoulter

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 01:11 PM

He got back to me and said that it isn't actually hydro-locked, but is puffing white smoke and overheats.
Head gaskets would be needed, but I am assuming this would also need the heads to be resurfaced.

I wouldn't mind a teardown if I knew that I could make it more reliable and last a very long time.....

BUT, like with the 2.5 gasket failure, and recommendation to switch to the 2.2 gaskets (If I am understanding that correctly)...is there a good alternative for the 3.0?



#5 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 02:02 PM

the main issue that frightens me is, how severely and how often did it overheat?

sure, you can put new gaskets on it - but then, a rod bearing could fail in 6 weeks.

If it was YOUR car, you'd know how much it had overheated and could make a decision with good knowledge - but that isn't the case here.

I'd only consider buying it with the calculation of installing a used engine.

#6 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 04:21 PM

They do have HG issues when older and its expensive to replaced them.

Hydrolocked may have a bent rod. If so the whole bottom end is a paper weight. Usually you can't disassemble them without a bandsaw. Once the shortened rod comes back to BDC it parks the piston skirt into the block and they fuse into one big heap of fail.

GD

#7 kennycoulter

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 07:31 AM

He did get back to me to say that it is only smoking, NOT locked up.

I figured that I would do a rebuild anyway.  



What would you guys expect to be a decent price?

He advertised it as $1000 obo, and let me know that he already turned down $400.

He said to bring cash, he wants to get rid of it.



#8 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 08:41 AM

I dunno, one other thing though, does it run well enough to confirm the transmission is shifting and doesn't exhibit torque bind? if all 4 tires aren't identical, that would be a red flag too.

#9 kennycoulter

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 12:49 PM

Thank you for the tip.   Being another auto trans, that has me worried too.



#10 idosubaru

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 04:07 PM

Price - depends on condition and rust. $500. $1,000 if it's a low mileage southern rust free spectacle of awesome. they're not worth much in running condition around these parts.

No way would I fix that engine - I'd replace it. No telling how badly it was overheated and they're an enormous job compared to the easy 4 cylinder Subaru headgasket jobs. They almost always start with very mild symptoms and progress, I've seen them take over a year to get worse, go months between overheats, only overheat in the summer with A/C on, etc - the smoking and symptoms here suggest this thing was let go or limped along for more than just a little bit. i wouldn't trust it, particularly with the debacle of ajob those heads are.

Being another auto trans, that has me worried too.


Those AT's are stout, I wouldn't worry about it much.

It's the MT's you need to worry about. Clutch job $$$$, input shaft bearings, synchro's, and torque bind that has no mitigating options, you're basically dead on the water with the MT if it happens.

Edited by idosubaru, 12 December 2017 - 04:09 PM.


#11 Bushwick

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 07:55 PM

Yeah, price = condition - running - towing + work involved. Going in person and looking it over 30 min to an hour, while bantering, learning about what has and hasn't been done to it, if it over heated on HIM or maybe his wife that ignored it for a week, etc. all the while doing an out LOUD "mental" tab of what needs to be fixed; the fact it'll need towed to your home; is the best way to lock-in a realistic deal as you've established a rapport.

 

If he sees you are serious, and plan to fix it, start with an offer. If he immediately rejects it, ask him how much he realistically wants for it then go from there. FWIW, I bought my 95' Legacy running, with at the time minor exterior rust and a busted rear crossmember for I think $750 and thew guy wanted $1k and had been trying to sell it for sometime. 5 years later and it still runs like a top, though the body is failing, and probably the last winter I'll get out of it. Also, FWIRW, a couple months ago I bought a 99' Continental (no rust, no dents, nice paint, everything works, 85k miles) for $650. It does have a rebuilt title, and needed 2 COPS replaced and had minor rodent chew on the COPS harness, but runs fine now and passed our emissions test. Car is leaps and bounds better than my 95' was/is, but due diligence can get you great deals ;) If it's a basket case, go find a strong runner for $1500. 


Edited by Bushwick, 12 December 2017 - 08:01 PM.


#12 kennycoulter

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 03:53 PM

Thank you all for the input.

I am a long time Subaru admirer, but have always worked on/owned fords and a few other makes.   It is taking me some time to learn all of the typical problems and what to look for in certain models/engines/transmissions.



#13 Bushwick

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 04:57 PM

I too am a Ford/Lincoln guy, and made a later-in-life jump to Subaru mainly for the AWD in winter and ended up enjoying the car more than I'd thought possible despite already having 170k when I got it. Even with 190k+ miles now on the non-interference ej22 and tons of horrid winter rust, it's still a great runner and shifts like a 60k mile car. Some newer models might have inherent issues, but a quick search lets you know what to expect. 



#14 kennycoulter

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 10:22 AM

Well, I got it.   It was way nicer than I expected, and it is an actual driving vehicle.   He swore that he was the sole driver, new some stuff about subarus, and was showing more info about the car.  He was unfortunately going through a divorce and wanted to get rid of the car.  You can see the exhaust pressure in the coolant tank and radiator, but oil not mixing.  he filled it with more coolant for me to be able to get it home (I expected that it needed towed).  It got up to operating temp quick, so I started out worried, but it never got hotter than that.  It was maybe a 24 mile ride home.  I stopped at a spot and came back to get it a few hours later, expecting a big loss of coolant.  it might have been down a cup and a half.

Car has plenty of power, and the auto trans feels better then my 2013 fusion.  I gave him $800.

I still PLAN to take the engine out to re-gasket it, and what ever other required maintenance.  He said that he has seen headgaskets performed with engine still in car: Difficult, but not impossible.


Your thoughts?


 



#15 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 10:26 AM

miles on engine?

#16 idosubaru

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 10:59 AM


I still PLAN to take the engine out to re-gasket it, and what ever other required maintenance.  He said that he has seen headgaskets performed with engine still in car: Difficult, but not impossible.


Your thoughts?


 

 

Very typical of EZ engines to use coolant and overheat randomly in this way or not overheat until they're low on coolant.  The description you gave is akin 75%+ of the blown EZ headgaskets I've seen and the ones that weren't I'd imagine were driven a long time blown and then had greater symptoms by the time I saw them. 

 

That being said - make sure it's not simply loosing coolant and then overheating when it gets too low. 

rusty EZ engines usually get a rusty lower coolant pipe under the drivers side head or front of the engine.  

check for OEM working radiator cap and additional leaks. 

 

i'd just replace the radiator cap, you'd want a new one after the repair anyway so just do it now to be done with it. 

make sure the radiator spout where the cap seals and sets isn't compromised. 

 

Engine has to be pulled on EZ engines.  You can do an EJ in the vehicle, even that has it's downsides but is totally doable.  AN EZ engine is a huge timing chain cover blessed lump that would be cumbersome to try and work around in the engine bay.  It could probably be done as a circus act but chances of head sealing and timing cover not leaking would all be up in the air. 



#17 kennycoulter

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:56 PM

Vehicle has about 155,xxx miles.

Would this be a decent kit?

DNJ  HGS717

OR:

MAHLE   HS54486?
 


Edited by kennycoulter, 18 December 2017 - 02:07 PM.


#18 idosubaru

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 02:35 PM

Vehicle has about 155,xxx miles.

Would this be a decent kit?

DNJ  HGS717

OR:

MAHLE   HS54486?
 

 

I would want OEM headgaskets and probably water pump gaskets.  I order parts as needed or get the OEM kit.

 

OEM headgaskets

2 intake manifold gaskets, 2 exhaust manifold gaskets, 2 valve cover gasket, 6 spark plug tube gaskets, crank seal (not included in the kit), water pump gasket(s), oil cooler gasket, PCV valve, a handful of different size orings for the timing covers.



#19 kennycoulter

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:05 AM

I assume that I should replace the timing at the same time?

I have already ordered the gasket set for my 1999 2.5, but hoped that I could install that one in the car (SEEMS like there is enough room).


I ordered most of the gaskets so far.  I am not sure if the front seals are included....everything looked head related.


Edited by kennycoulter, 20 December 2017 - 09:44 AM.


#20 idosubaru

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:08 AM

I assume that I should replace the timing at the same time?

 

On an EZ30 H6 with no timing issues or noise?  nah they're timing chains and last the life of the vehicle. 

if it's dirty or you suspect poor maintenance then maybe replace the timing chain tensioners.

 

EJ25's can be done in the vehicle.  unbolt the engine from the crossmember and lift up the side you're working on as far as you can for good access to clean/prep/install.   it is not ideal and prone to mistakes but it is doable. 



#21 1 Lucky Texan

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 11:15 AM

might get a JDM engine with half those miles, for far less hassle hassle , but more money(?), to drop in.

#22 kennycoulter

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 12:47 PM

How do we feel about ARP head studs for STI's?

I just don't think a head gasket should fail so soon..... When I bought my Fusion 3 years ago, I was actually looking at Subarus for 2 years, and scared away due to the HG problems.

I saw that Perrin H6 build had STI ARP studs in place, with "shims" under the nuts and/or washers.  I have access to hardened/machined/accurate stuff like those "shims".

Does an H6 have 16 head bolts?


I considered a different engine purchase, ready it with all necessary gaskets/timing...detail it a little.... then do a swap in a couple days with less down time.   BUT from reading this site, it seems that the unknown history of the engines and the tendency to warp the head surface had scared me away from doing that.



#23 idosubaru

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 01:44 PM

the JDM's are a pretty decent bet and the 2004 and earlier ones are inexpensive now. even if i had to replace it twice for $750...which i've never had to do...it's still only $1,500 for a crap ton of miles. compared to what you current have - an engine that's nearly guaranteed to have been run hot and with extant headgasket issues, it's not any significant difference.

Ignoring the EJ25D for a moment - a properly done EJ/EZ headgasket has great success rates and mileages. a proper resurface, OEM gaskets has high success rates and GLoyale, GD, and others doing lots of these are giving that a thumbs up.

IMO logically speaking - worrying about a 2% failure rate in a 15+ year old car is a bit over the top.

i wouldn't do ARP's. on a specialized high performance, ground up, high dollar unlimited budget like PERRIN projects - sure, but that's not what this is. but maybe some of the other guys who have done tons can comment more specifically.

Edited by idosubaru, 20 December 2017 - 01:45 PM.


#24 kennycoulter

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:31 AM

I found a bunch of the "JDM" suppliers on Ebay.     I am a little confused as to why they exist.
Why are these 60,xxx mile engines relatively cheap?

What would be different about the Japanese engine?
 

 

Separate topic:
HOW do the later 3.0's go?   Easy swap?  Is the vario-cam hydraulic or electric?   I would assume computer and injectors would be different for the added horseypower...



Sorry guys(or girls), I am new to Foreign cars (other than my longest ownership of a car being a single German unit).

I have the ability and background to repair/install/build anything, but this is a new genre for me.  I tried to upload a picture or 2 of my previous engine builds (motorcycles and ford engines) but the links were messing up.



#25 idosubaru

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:49 AM

You can probably google it for a more thorough information as I'm just repeating what I've heard, but there's no local market for those engines in japan because I think of their laws, tax, and vehicle structures.  So they're worthless over there, but not here. They're low mileage but really they don't know the mileage on any engine - it's essentially a large island so it's all local short trip mileage.  

 

Very common option, I'm swapping in a JDM trans right now, it's on the floor and the trans is all unbolted and ready to drop.

 

The later EZ30's are just like you said - additional valve train solenoids and systems.  They're essentially the original EZ30 with additional bits and a few internal changes.  The newer EZ's are $1,500+.  price will like be hitting $1,000 or lower soon as they're starting to age now.   The first EZ engines/trans used to be similarly expensive but as time goes on prices drop. 






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