jeryst Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 My car is having some problem and I'm trying to figure out what is going on. Vehicle: 1997 Impreza Outback Sport, 2.2 engine, 215k miles. Timing belt, components, water pump replaced around 210k Recently replaced Throttle positioning sensor and Knock sensor NGK Plugs and wires have about 50k on them Behavior:When starting cold, the car starts immediately, but runs very roughly for about 10-15 seconds, then smooths out. Doesnt seem to do it when the car is warm. When driving around in "Drive", the car has very poor throttle response, almost dead. It's like you press the gas pedal, and nothing happens until the car downshifts. When driving around in "Drive" and I put a load on the engine, like going up a hill, the temperature rapidly starts to climb, however, if I manually pull it back into "3", and the RPM's jump up, the car immediately cools down, like within a few seconds. You can actually watch the needle fall. Anyone have any idea as to what is going on? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeryst Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 I forgot to mention that going downhill, cruising along a straight stretch, or running at higher RPM's no problem. It will idle all day without heating up at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 not much from me except - kinda seems like 2 problems. About the only link I could come up with would be slipped timing due to oil on the timing belt, which also slips on the water pump????? cam or crank seal leaking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeryst Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) My crank seal is leaking. Wouldnt it slip even more at a higher RPM though? Edited December 21, 2017 by jeryst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeryst Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 New wrinkle. Took it to a friends garage to do a little troubleshooting. We discovered that the cooling fans are not turning on. Jumpered the fans and they came on, so they work. But we cannot get them to come on any other way. We turned the AC on hich is supposed to kick on the fans, but they didnt come on. All the wiring seems good. Diagnostic tool shows that telp sensor is working. They are starting to think that maybe the ECM is bad and is not letting (or telling) the fans to come on. Anyone agree or disagree that the ECM could be causing the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) How about the coolant temp sensor/CTS? They're known to go bad. Cheap and kinda of a pain to replace, but I'd do that. Edited December 21, 2017 by wtdash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeryst Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 According to the diagnostic scanner, the sensor is reporting temperature to the ECM. They said the fans should come on when the AC comes on, but they dont. They're saying the ECM is not turning the fans on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 When driving around in "Drive" and I put a load on the engine, like going up a hill, the temperature rapidly starts to climb, however, if I manually pull it back into "3", and the RPM's jump up, the car immediately cools down, like within a few seconds. You can actually watch the needle fall. after re-reading, i'm thinking one of the gurus can probably diagnose based on this. ^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeryst Posted December 30, 2017 Author Share Posted December 30, 2017 Update. Replaced plugs, wires, and air filter, without much effect. Disconnected the EGR valve and the car started running much better, so I am replacing the EGR valve. Now, the only issue that exists is the overheating, so I am going to start a new topic just for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 Rough running at initial cold start and random overheating @ 215k IS a head gasket failure. No other diagnostics need to be performed. Replace head gaskets. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeryst Posted January 7, 2018 Author Share Posted January 7, 2018 That is an educated guess. I am looking to find a way to prove it. If I increase the RPM's without increasing forward speed, wouldnt the engine overheat further if it is a head gasket? Higher RPM's make the engine cool down almost instantly. I can watch the needle fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 GD is correct....HG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Any gurgling in the heater core when you start it up cold?(audible in vehicle)swish swish....... and what are outside temps, currently? Leaking compression causes bad circulation....pressure in cooling system[can't circulate].... That is what GD is speculating on..... Based on his experience......(correct me if I am wrong) I have seen this on some of my diesels....... and I had it in an old loyale.... (I actually yanked the thermostat [on a loyale] for a little while.. it helped just drove locally..... fixed when it was timely for me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 That is an educated guess. I am looking to find a way to prove it. If I increase the RPM's without increasing forward speed, wouldnt the engine overheat further if it is a head gasket? Higher RPM's make the engine cool down almost instantly. I can watch the needle fall. Nope. Definitive diagnosis. Replace head gaskets. Or don't and continue to deny the reality. Matters little to me. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) wouldnt the engine overheat further if it is a head gasket? Higher RPM's make the engine cool down almost instantly. I can watch the needle fall. headgasket failures don’t all exhibit identical symptoms. We’ve seen that before too. It depends on the nature of the breech. If cooling is reduced due to low coolant levels from consuming coolant or a small air pocket then revving may push through that. Other times hot exhaust gases are pushing into the coolant too much, or cavitating at the pump and revving the engine doesn’t help, just adds more heat and exhaust to the coolant. Sure, confirm it if you want, but that line of reasoning is not accurate. Edited January 8, 2018 by idosubaru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeryst Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 So no one feels that a bad water pump could be causing this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 it would be an exceedingly rare failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 So no one feels that a bad water pump could be causing this? That never happens. They leak from the weep hole due to bearing failure. They don't stop pumping. This isn't a VW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1997reduxe Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 this is a small thing but onetime i had my 95 worked on and it seemed like they had disconnected the connector that connected the fan wires to the body wires or harness whatever. or it got oily or something but i played around with it it seemed not seated and i noticed the fans werent running but afterward they were. it kinda got hot then too but its a 2.2. no probs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxer Medic Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) Check for bubbles in the over flow tank, my 97 legacy outback ej25 did a lot of the same things when my HG went bad. Random overheating, loss of coolant, poor heat from heater and bubbles in coolant overflow bottle. If your friend has a hydrocarbon tester you can warm up car and "sniff" for HC's in the radiator and/or overflow bottle. If *any* hc's are detected your HG are bad. There should be zero HC's in the cooling system. Edited January 13, 2018 by Boxer Medic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstone Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Agree with above- check the coolant for hydrocarbons. That’ll tell you if the HG is blown and needs replacement. You may want to consider replacing the engine with a used good or have GD replace the HGs for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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