koolminx Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 One diagram has them numbered left to right, the other right to left.... 95 is a goofy rump roast year so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkyboy Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) That scope sounds sweet!That top row is stupid, but no counting the wires is not all what i am saying,Ok...you know pins 1 and 2 contain the first two wires.The third wire on that row is in pin 5, there are two solid blanks and the next two empty spots (notice that pins 3 and 4 have no wires)I know it's silly but you got this Edited January 11, 2018 by sparkyboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Well that's looking at two different sides of the connector set which are mirror images - what will really blow your mind is that schematics aren't consistent labeling pinouts as if you are looking at the front or back of the connector..... that's why you need to cross reference the pinout with the schematic containing wire colors and size. Quite frankly though, if you can't verify the waveform, then you can't confirm or deny an ECU failure. It's just not possible. So unless you can find another cause, you WILL be trying a different ECU for better or worse. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkyboy Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) I know, i always have used the right to left. The purpose for the left to right is if you are looking at the front of the harness with the wires facing away from you. But they are both correct. It took me several hours to even know where to begin on the harness i did. I can tell you that the haynes manual actually has a good diagram section. They separated them into engine control, ac and lights and $hit, and the rest...but the diagram at the bottom of the pinout has that info, just sucks trying to read But its freeeee! Edited January 10, 2018 by sparkyboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolminx Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) A spark boy I think I'll take you up on your offer of that ECM my ECM model is one digit off of yours but everything so far from 7 and 94 which is my production date as well has said it's the 22611 ab414 my computer's an ab415 but I don't think that's going to have any detrimental effects Edited January 10, 2018 by koolminx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) [16 15. [x] [x]14. 13.[x] [x] 12. 11 [x] [x]10. 9 [______] 8. 7 [x] [x] 6. 5 [x] [x] 4. 3 [x] [x] 2. 1] Starting at 16 yellow/blue 15 yellow/blue > ECU power 14 yellow/white > igniter control 13 yellow/purple > igniter control 12 Black 11 White/Yellow > idle air control 10 empty 9 empty 8 white 7 black > crank sensor 6 green 5. Red > cam sensor 4 empty 3 empty 2 brown > injector 1 1 light green > injector 2 17 and 18 are the blue wires directly under 1 and 2 and are injector 4 and 3 respectively Yes you should have blinks from a noid light with each revolution of the engine during cranking. GD brings up a good point about the timing belt. You mentioned lack of spark at some point in the thread, and that combined with the lack of fuel injection trigger could mean jumped timing. If the cam and crank signals are not in sync the ECU will not trigger fuel or spark. The belt doesn't have to be broken. A weak tensioner will allow the belt to skip without breaking. You mention there are no timing covers on it, so it's easy to turn the crank to its timing mark and just verify that the cams are also at their proper marks. Edited January 11, 2018 by Fairtax4me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 GD brings up a good point about the timing belt. You mentioned lack of spark at some point in the thread, and that combined with the lack of fuel injection trigger could mean jumped timing. If the cam and crank signals are not in sync the ECU will not trigger fuel or spark. The belt doesn't have to be broken. A weak tensioner will allow the belt to skip without breaking. You mention there are no timing covers on it, so it's easy to turn the crank to its timing mark and just verify that the cams are also at their proper marks. Without a doubt - This ^^^ Just verify that everything is where it is supposed to be. Don't dismiss it out of hand because the car was running fine, then suddenly not. Check it, make 100%, absolutely, positively sure that this is not the source of your hair pulling. It only takes one tooth to throw everything out of whack. Line the marks up and MAKE SURE! I have had this happen to me, a couple of different times, on a couple of different EJ22s... Once while actually driving down the road... traffic light was about to change, and I was too close to stop safely, so hit the throttle hard to get through it...Car started to speed up and then suddenly died... I made it through the light ok, but had to coast to a safe spot to stop (luckily it was a slight downhill grade) Trailered the car home and dug in to it, pulled the timing covers, and found it had jumped time by exactly ONE tooth due to a weak tensioner. the belt was perfectly fine and intact, but it was still out of time. Remember - this is a 22+ year old car, and if it has the original tensioner, chances are very good it is worn out, making it quite plausible that it has jumped time. Moral of this story is - if your car suddenly wont start (or suddenly dies) - CHECK THE TIMING FIRST! IF it checks out, then you chase down other gremlins as needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolminx Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) You know what? Both of you too have made a strong point and by the way thank you for that schematic you typed up for me that was beautiful!!!! The strong point being that it was my son driving the damn car and he could be lying his rump roast off about what happened or how he was driving to the store before it failed to start when he came out. But I strongly doubt that it is a jumped timing although I will verify just as soon as the rain stops LOL Being an old mechanic and having been around Vehicles a long long time it does not sound like it's cranking out of time but I will verify just in case I'm just praying that it's a shart computer... Edited January 11, 2018 by koolminx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) Unlike later model ECU's, these won't throw codes for camshaft-crankshaft correlation. They just cease to function if they can't sync the two signals. There is a lot of the OBD-II library of codes that were completely unused till newer models. Newer stuff will freak out and throw codes if it's off one tooth on most cars. Also - I have seen injector driver mosfet's fail, and ECU's do strange things in cold weather, etc (even not start at all), but rarely do they completely stop working. Usually they run like crap or lose a single injector driver, or have a circuit failure that causes a code even though the component is good.... I've only replaced a very tiny number of complete failures. Maybe 2 or 3 in a dozen years. And I see a LOT of these cars. Like an average of more than 2 a day. Whenever we get a no start - we start with checking fuel, spark, etc just like you did. At some point though we usually at least pull the outer belt covers and check timing - but as you noted - the trained ear can hear if it's out of time when cranking, or obviously has low compression on one or more cylinders..... the process isn't cut and dried because you use all those senses, as well as conversation with the customer to determine diagnostic path. GD Edited January 11, 2018 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolminx Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 On this particular model I must beg to differ. If I have no check engine light and then I unplug the crank sensor and crank the motor over I will get it check engine light and the code will be for the crank sensor. If I clear the code and then crank the motor over with the crank sensor plugged in that code goes away showing that the computer does recognize that the crank sensor was in or out of the system I eat working correctly or not working being it became an open circuit. The same goes with the cam sensor and the idle air control that I got yesterday when I was diagnosing and playing with the car. The Idler control I believe was a P0505 Once these items for plugged back in the code was cleared and when I crank the motor again the code did not reappear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolminx Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 Additionally it was a very long cranking session before the car would start and it would usually only start when the battery got down to 10 volts or maybe even a little bit less right before it would cease to crank and then it would fire up but it would always run extremely smoothly once the load from the alternator smooth out after recharging but even then there was no ill functioning of the computer running the motor at all no misfiring no weeks throttle nothing that would seem unto word other than hard cranking and then finally starting at the end of its life or near the end of its life of cranking. This happened over a period of time but maybe a month and a half it had to be cranked longer and longer and longer and then finally it just wouldn't start after my son drove it to the store Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolminx Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) And I fully understand your sentences about the diagnostic path And discussing with the customer the issues that they experienced. Now as far as my son is concerned spoob he could have been going straight downhill at 250 miles per hour and then just coasted in to the store parking lot when it died but it was a really convoluted parking lot so I kind of believe his story that he drove and then parked when inside came back out and it wouldn't start so he jumped it with the spare battery he keeps in the car and he play with it for about a half hour and it still wouldn't start and then he came to me I told that sucker home after doing a thousand different things to it LOL so now I'm waiting on this computer from spark boy and hopefully she'll fire right up if not I think there's going to be an accidental fire in my driveway from a spilling of two or three hundred gallons of unleaded LOL Edited January 11, 2018 by koolminx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkyboy Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) Once she is running again ask him did you put the jump cables on backwards? Nothing to be ashamed of, I've done more than my share of dumb s**t but that might be an explanation if it's an ecu failure, However you did have signs of failure beforehand so i believe the story. It is loads of fun to rev the piss out of these engines Edited January 11, 2018 by sparkyboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkyboy Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) In fact i have a really funny story about some dumb s**t i did once... I was redoing the cylinder heads on my swap engine and i somehow (drunkenly maybe) got the valves mixed up on the driver side. I had exhaust valves where intake goes and vice versa haha what a jackass, the fact that zero compression on either cylinder made me feel like a total douche for sure. Thank the good dude for non interference engines but once i removed the t belt and held the cam in place and turned the crank there sure was some interference jesus what an idiot Edited January 11, 2018 by sparkyboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 The relay changed the symptoms? What else is in line with that relay that could have blown? And what caused that relay to blow? If two (or more) things blew that’s suspicious. Might it be a good idea to make sure the alt isn’t overcharging before installing a new ECU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolminx Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 Technically I think the ECU relay failure was the thing that gave up the ghost the day my son was driving it because when I was previously diagnosing the car I would receive a solder two injector code while cranking it with annoyed like in sonar to us injector and I also received the code prior to the final failure of the crank sensor being out of whack when I had the crank sensor unplugged Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkyboy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Have you checked the self shutoff circuit? Pin 86 Not getting 12 volts to that pin can cause some craziness if i understand correctly, in fact the car won't start at all and is tied into the main relay. If i recall it's a red wire with yellow stripe, and maybe one of the thicker ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) To be clear - I never said it can't throw codes for the crank sensor OR the cam sensor. What it will NOT do is throw a code for "crankshaft / camshaft correlation" which is a DIFFERENT code that indicates the two sensors are not in sync with one another. These early ECU's do not have the capability to detect this. GD Edited January 12, 2018 by GeneralDisorder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolminx Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 Ohhh, okay, i misread, i get what youre saying now. My apologies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolminx Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 Have you checked the self shutoff circuit? Pin 86 Not getting 12 volts to that pin can cause some craziness if i understand correctly, in fact the car won't start at all and is tied into the main relay. If i recall it's a red wire with yellow stripe, and maybe one of the thicker ones I will check in the morning if i can find where the darn wire is on the harness. ???????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkyboy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 (edited) Not to hijack this thread but, I'm hijacking! I have a few questions for the experts, the last one is related to this guys issue. Who here can tell me what that self shutoff is even about? I can't seem to find it on the wiring diagram...also I found a 95 impreza at the junkyard and looked at the ecu and it has a neon yellow 3 piece plug? Did the impreza and leggo have a different ecu for some reason? And finally will plugging in the test mode connectors do anything in this guys situation besides hearing the relays click on and off? Dosen't the car also test the iacv, purge solenoid, O2 sensors, etc? And would the 95 flash the cel code like the obd1 cars? Someone told me the obd2 subes don't do the code flashing thing. I would think that it would test all the systems, can you guys shed some light? I dunno i guess this engine has never given me any real issues is why I don't know anything about these items. Im too lazy to do my own damn research ha Koolminx that ecu works for sure, I'll get it in the mail today. Edited January 12, 2018 by sparkyboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolminx Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 Those are some very good and valuable questions to ask :-) and thank you for mailing that to me I will be extremely pleased when I plug it in and this car fires up :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 95 Impreza is not OBD-II. 93 to 95 Impreza are similar to each other, but share nothing with Legacy models ECU wise. The car doesn't do any additional diagnostics unless you go through the entire d-check procedure. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolminx Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 Okay boys let's open up this can of worms new crank sensor new cam sensor timing marks Dead on new computer new computer control relay crank the motor nothing happens release the key and on the last movement of the motor the Noid light flashes twice for the injectors tell me what the problem is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 You need scope traces of the cam and crank sensors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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