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Diagnosis Help


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21 replies to this topic

#1 Qbert

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 02:35 PM

Hello,

My Subaru 1992 loyale died out on me a few days ago and I can't diagnose my car as well as I had thought.

My car will turn on when  i turn the key to ON, but it wont turn over when i try to start the car. It definitely sounds like its trying to (im guessing thats just my starter). I had a friend try to start the car while i was under the hood, I took off my air intake manifold from on top of the engine to bypass the oxygen (Spark, Fuel, and Air, for the 3 starting components), I also just changed out my fuel filter in case it was that. So i've got spark, my starter, i've seem to have air with the bypass or not, and i seem to have fuel as well. So now its a Mechanical problem im guessing? Maybe my timing belt is off a tooth? any suggestions? or if i need to provide any more information i will, i just dont know the questions that might arise. 

Thanks, Your friendly old subaru mechanic in the works



#2 DaveT

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 04:50 PM

Is the cranking rythm even like it always was? If a timing belt broke, it will be oddly uneven.

Other easy check - pull the cap off the distributor. Have someone watch the rotor and someone crank. Of use a socket to turn the crank pulley bolt. If the rotor doesn't move, it timing belt time.


The coolant temperature sensor can make hard starting also.

#3 Dee2

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 07:16 PM

My Subaru 1992 loyale died out on me a few days ago...

 How did it die ?  Suddenly or did it do a hurt dance ?  Has it been difficult to start prior to this event ?  You say you changed the fuel filter but the problem may be the fuel pump.  If the timing has been checked and the problem persists, then the fuel pump is a good bet.

 

Rap on the fuel pump with something like a screwdriver handle a few times.  if this get the car running then it's time to replace the fuel pump.



#4 naru

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 11:59 AM

 I took off my air intake manifold from on top of the engine to bypass the oxygen 

 

 

It is not goimg to run w/o the airflow meter



#5 Qbert

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 01:57 PM

Im not too sure how to direct reply, but thanks for the input you 3

 

DaveT: crank rythm was and still is pretty normal, just wont turn over and start! ill check my distributor along side the coolant temperature sensor, though they were intact fairly well last time around when i did a clutch swap (6months ago) but everything can break so thank you

 

Dee2: it just died, one second i was at a stop light at idle, the next second was when i went to gas and engage the clutch, it died. thankfully it was a downhill that i was at for me to roll through the stop light and park safely off street. not too dificult to start prior to, a quick turn of the key and a bit of gas got it to idle (700rpm). ill definitely check the fuel pump, along side the distributor and the coolant temperature sensor.

 

naru: i dont have a airflow meter? before i was able to bypass the oxygen and have a better start each time.


Edited by Qbert, 23 April 2018 - 01:59 PM.


#6 DaveT

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 04:05 PM

If it is a stock EA82 Loyale from 92, the MAF is the chunk on the air cleaner box.

It should start and run with or without the intake boot attached to the throttle body, but obviously the ECU can't fine tune the mixture with it off. The ECU does not try to fine tune the mixture until the engine is at normal operating temperature.

#7 jono

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 05:20 PM

You said you removed the air intake manifold. This is the alloy componentthat bolts to the head each side. T od this would mean you have eliminated the whole air fuel mixing devices and expose the intake ports of the heads and coolant pasages right next to them. Maybe you removed intake air filter or air ducting

 

You must have some identification on the air intake pieces? single point fuel injection  not a carburettor?



#8 Qbert

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 10:37 AM

Is there a way to check the timing belt if it skipped a tooth without tearing the front end off? i checked to see if the belt was still in place by rotating the engine and watching the spark plugs as they were out for the movement of the pistons, i have timing, i just dont know if the timing skipped a tooth



#9 DaveT

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 10:39 AM

Only have to take the left and right side timing belt covers off to see the camshaft marks.

The crank mark is on the flywheel.

#10 yblocker

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 11:27 AM

You can't tell if the belt has broken/skipped by looking at the pistons while you turn the crank pulley bolt.  The crank and pistons will be in motion with or without the belt.

As was previously stated, you can remove the distributor cap and see if the rotor is turning when you turn the crank.  If it doesn't- then it's the belt in all likelyhood.

 

You can check for mechanical timing by getting #1 piston (front-left-by battery) to the top of its stroke and see if the rotor is pointng at the correct distributor plug tower.  



#11 DaveT

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 11:33 AM

Yes, that's right - looking at the pistons through the spark plug holes tells you nothing about the camshaft timing, or the belt condition.

And there are 2 belts on EA82s, if the passenger side belt broke, the distributor will still turn.

If the drivers side belt broke, it won't turn, and it would not even try to run obviously. I did see somewhere notes about where the rotor in the distributor should be pointing at TDC. But that doesn't check the passenger side belt.

#12 yblocker

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 11:49 AM

Yes, that's right - looking at the pistons through the spark plug holes tells you nothing about the camshaft timing, or the belt condition.

And there are 2 belts on EA82s, if the passenger side belt broke, the distributor will still turn.

If the drivers side belt broke, it won't turn, and it would not even try to run obviously. I did see somewhere notes about where the rotor in the distributor should be pointing at TDC. But that doesn't check the passenger side belt.

 

Right. Forgot the two belt complication.

If the driver side is broken- rotor no turny and the cranking cadence will be strange.

If it's the passenger side, then you still have the weird cranking cadence.

If you don't know when the timing belts were last changed, then if it were me, I'd pull the covers to have a look.

Is the car in a place you can work on it?



#13 Qbert

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 09:56 AM

its in a farely decent spot to work on it, i did a whole engine swap where its at right now, but thats not really the point haha. is there a way to take the caps off without draining the coolant and pulling the front end out?



#14 DaveT

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 10:55 AM

The timing belt covers? The outer 2 L and R should come off without a lot of other dissasebly. Might be more of a pain, but doable.

#15 Qbert

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 12:53 PM

So i just took off the right side cover and a peice of metal, almost like a gasket of some type got loose in there. or maybe there is no metal gaskets and this was tucked up in there before when i did my timing belt a year ago. 

 

anyways the belt teeth are tore up, thats probably my problem not belt on the right side per se



#16 DaveT

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 12:56 PM

No metal gaskets in there.

Once you get the front covers off post a picture or 2

#17 rdweninger

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 02:42 PM

When you replace timing belts, always replace (or re-bearing) the tensioners and cogged idler.   You will greatly prolong the life of your timing belts.    Or... keep the old tensioners and replace your timing belts every 5-10,000 miles... maybe less.

  Either way ... don't need the plastic belt covers ... throw them away.   Your next TB replacement will take 30 minutes.   And inspecting the TB will only take a glance when the hood is open.



#18 el_freddo

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 07:54 PM

If timing gear is covered in melted cam belt rubber ensure it's all removed before fitting the new belts ;)

Cheers

Bennie

#19 Qbert

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 01:17 PM

i cant take a good picture of the timing belts, ive been trying and its just not enough light in the garage. im sure the metal thing i found under the plastic covers would have not tore up my belt if i hjust had the stupid plastic covers off completely. butoh well, timing belt changes arent too time consuming. i hope this is the fix to my problem!



#20 Gloyale

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 02:33 PM

Is there a way to check the timing belt if it skipped a tooth without tearing the front end off? i checked to see if the belt was still in place by rotating the engine and watching the spark plugs as they were out for the movement of the pistons, i have timing, i just dont know if the timing skipped a tooth

 

Timing belt operates teh valves, not the pistons.

 

You need to check the belt.  Just look, does the rotor turn when the engine is cranked?  if no, that is the problem, broken drivers side belt.

 

***just finished reading......the piece of metal, probably one of the dust sheilds on the idler/tensioners.



#21 jono

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 05:55 PM

maybe to help us help you - can you describe the piece of metal ?

 

Did you remove it easily or is it stuck or attached to something?

 

Made of flat metal less than a mm thick? Or more solid?

 

Shape, size ?

 

When I have got new timing belts from the US they come with warnings not to allow anything get on the belts - such as oil or coolant or they will deteriorate and not be covered by warranty. As such, I not only keep belt covers on and in good condition, I seal where the water pump to timing case sometimes not seal too well.

 

There are a few other spots crap may spill and leak onto sensitive rubber belts, so I seal them as well..

 

Besides, a neighbours cat likes my Sube so much he sleeps somewhere under the car. I'd hate for his tail to get caught up as I start up :)



#22 yblocker

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 08:16 AM

I agree with the above with regard to keeping the covers on.  Driving on debris strewn roads and off highway just invites some stray piece of soething to get in there and cause havoc.

Once the timing belt and other components that are serviceable behind the covers are replaced during a major service, the covers stay on there for the next several years. I don't need to check on it all regularly.

 

You could take the piece of metal that caused your grief into the light and take a photo like that.


Edited by yblocker, 12 May 2018 - 08:23 AM.





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