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Ok, whats the deal?!?


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24 replies to this topic

#1 WJM

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 06:44 PM

Am I crazy or what?

Beginnings:
Bone stock 2WD 3AT turbo wagon in perfect shape

Now:
RX body kit'ed, 4WD 5spd converted FT4WD super stiff and low and loud and way faster than stock with 5 point harness and great sound system with a now less than perfect body and interior (but still in WAY better shape than others this age), Corbeau seat and and and and....etc...

Ultimate Goal: Faster than Stock USDM STi in a stright line...and WAY faster in the corners. Daily streetable. Reliable (meaning 40k miles between engine changes at least! LOL) Oh and i GOTTA have the 5% tint job and a new paint job. some FIA cert seats and a nice FIA cert. roll bar and 5 point harness for driver and passenger.

am i crazy? Insane? stupid?

Here are the mods that I think will get the engine up to spec:

Megasquirt and DIS (DIS with a knock sensor and the DIS system is integrated within the MS system and it "self tunes" the timing like i want it to)
Delta cams (either the BIG profile for less streetability or the 260 ones for more streetability)
Racing header
VF22 with a complete Deadbolt workover
3 or 3.5 inch TBE (cat? maybe...muffler? NO WAY!)
Forged internals, some kind of beryllium/titanium/aluminium/carbon steel alloy for the crank and rods...and something even more exotic for the pistons
Oil jets for the pistons
A well engineered oil cooling system
OE Turbo headgaskets!!
Spyder intake w/XT6 or larger throttle body
WRX/STi or a beefy Air/Water intercooler
Probably 20-26 PSI of boost
High volume oil pump
light flywheel and a nice strong clutch and pres plate...with hydr. clutch conversion

Hm...lets mod the RX box too....stock gearing redone...really we balanced....top speed would be 200 at 8,000 RPMs in HI 5th. Final 3.70 in HI, Low would compute to 4.444
Quick and tight vicsous coupler in the center...slower looser VLSD in the front and something in between for the rear, VLSD as well. Center diff lock still works
Super fast, ultra touch triple cone syncros, and the "WJM Alloy" (ya know, aht teh internals of the engine would be made of) for the gear set and such....
Aluminuim driveshaft with experimental CV style joints instead of U joints
Nice ultralight yet 4X stronger than stock axles and CVs/DOJs.....

Shall I do on? :headbang:

#2 subynut

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 07:49 PM

I say, DO IT!! Beatin' a WRX would be awesome!

#3 WJM

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 07:55 PM

I say, DO IT!! Beatin' a WRX would be awesome!


Uhmm....i said STi dood.... :drunk:

#4 subynut

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 08:13 PM

That's even better! Man, I'm gettin everything mixed up lately. :-\

#5 subaru_styles

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 08:35 PM

i give you props for your goals, but being the rain on the parade i only think it will be possible by starting with a bigger powerplant ie: an EJ



Posted Image


someone new too the board just purchased this bad-boy. i was looking to buy it too last month

#6 WJM

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 08:37 PM

Uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm....uhmmmm...uuhhhmmm....

So like...which side of the car is the steering wheel on? methinks the right side.

#7 spanky_pete

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 08:47 PM

Sounds fun, but beating an STi is going to cost you much $$$

#8 subaru_styles

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 09:03 PM

that is just a usdm 87 or 88 gl with an fully built EJ22t. legacy trans with locked diffs, RWD. its lives in so cal

#9 oddcomp

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 09:17 PM

so.. where are you geting this dis system that auto tunes?

#10 Subafreak

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 09:32 PM

i give you props for your goals, but being the rain on the parade i only think it will be possible by starting with a bigger powerplant ie: an EJ



Posted Image


someone new too the board just purchased this bad-boy. i was looking to buy it too last month





Hay, I got one of thoes in my Loyal, just no intercooler and it sits 4inches lower.

#11 carfreak85

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Posted 26 July 2004 - 11:38 PM

Yes, I think the straight line this has a small chance of happening (Very small) but the corners thing is not going to happen ever (I think), as long as total numbers are concerned.

#12 subynut

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 01:04 AM

So, what's the weight differance? His car vs an STi. If he's light enough then even with less HP, he still has a chance. Corners or a straight line. It's like a Pinto out running big block eights on the straights and in the corners.......see ya!

#13 carfreak85

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 01:22 AM

Well think of it my way: (Just for the record, I am very excited to see this car preform!)

The STi has a semi-closed block, sodium filled exhaust valves, decades worth of advanced engineering and a tranny designed by Porsche that has three LSDs (One being controlled by a computer)... It has 300hp and 300 lb/ft of torque. Runs 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, the 1320 in less than 13 seconds (Faster in all performance tests than a supercharged Cobra, in a ford magazine!) and has a top speed of 145+. 12.9" front brakes with computers controlling them and stops in less than 125 feet. It pulls around .90G on the skidpad, and has proven its self as a serious race car on 5 (or 6, any rallys in Asia?) of the 7 continents.

The GL has 20+ year old technology in it's engine. 5 speed tranny that, while a technical tour de force in terms of packaging, it isn't anything special. The EA82T made 115hp and 134 lb/ft of torque, and ran about 10 seconds and about 18 seconds in the quarter mile. It has single piston sliding calipers front and rear, hardly stops at all. I don't think it registers anything over .75G on the skidpad and was rallied by subaru, but I haven't heard about any success from that program. I have faith, but on the original engine and suspension designs, as well as the limitations of the old, tired chassis will hinder the project...

Other than that, MORE POWER TO YA!!!

#14 Warp3

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 01:41 PM

Ultimate Goal: Faster than Stock USDM STi


Oh, so I show you some ballpark calculations showing that "faster than a WRX" is possible (due to much lower weight) and now you're shooting even higher, eh? LOL

(Of course, the good news is that the STi is even heavier than the WRX, so that makes the fraction of the target car's hp you need to actually make even lower. You are still going to need at least double what the stock EA82T produces though, and even then, don't forget the STi has the torque to match.)

am i crazy? Insane? stupid?


Yes...this has already been well established in past threads...LOL ;)

Delta cams (either the BIG profile for less streetability or the 260 ones for more streetability)


Don't forget, though, that turbo engines don't really like aggressive cams. I'd go for the mild one, if at all.

Racing header


Don't go too large on piping pre-turbo, though, or you'll hurt spool.

VF22 with a complete Deadbolt workover


VF22 is probably overkill, but go for it...hehe

Forged internals, some kind of beryllium/titanium/aluminium/carbon steel alloy for the crank and rods...and something even more exotic for the pistons


Depends...has anyone actually found the limits of the stock pieces yet?

Oil jets for the pistons


Even though the Legacy Turbo and early WRX engines had this, it's interesting to note that the later models (including the infamous STi 22B), do not utilize this any longer.

A well engineered oil cooling system


Absolute must! Wouldn't hurt to work over the regular cooling system either.

Probably 20-26 PSI of boost


Don't forget that larger turbos (like the VF22) produce more CFM at lower psi than small turbos. Thus this amount of boost may not be necessary. (In other words, a VF22 will push more air (and thus make more hp) at 8psi than a VF7 would at 8psi.)

Aluminuim driveshaft with experimental CV style joints instead of U joints
Nice ultralight yet 4X stronger than stock axles and CVs/DOJs.....


This is the area, I'm most worried about. The engine seems quite strong, but the drivetrain just wasn't designed for this kind of power and I don't know how well it would survive it.

#15 MorganM

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 01:58 PM

All that fancy stereo crap is killing your trap speed yo :rolleyes:

Enough talking, do it! :drunk:

#16 garner

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 05:33 PM

so.. where are you geting this dis system that auto tunes?


yes, do tell... and what about knock control? elaborate please.... in the ignition control department....

On the general idea, I do think you are insane, crazy and all that but just to motivate you to go for it I will say....

NO WAY WILL YOU BEAT AN STI IN THE TWISTIES!!!!!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!!!!

I'll fly out there and race you in one of your dealership's STI (I'd prefer black) and you can leave the stock tires on.

#17 WJM

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 06:56 PM

My oh my.......for i must take about 1 hr to respond to this properly....

#18 WJM

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 07:39 PM

[QUOTE]Yes, I think the straight line this has a small chance of happening (Very small) but the corners thing is not going to happen ever (I think), as long as total numbers are concerned.[/QUOTE]

Stright line is possible...the wagonw weighs in at 2664 lbs right now...STi and WRX are over 3100. Differences there...

Cornering? Yes it will. Numbers. me=lighter. All things being equal...NO. But im lighter...but the STi does have the advantage of much better and well sorted hanlding stock. with R compounts and stock camber adjustment, its killer. Im just shooting for beating a rolling of the showroom floor stock STi, both of us on similar street tires. Now, with R compounds i think the STi will still be able to nudge me out...BUT...some other things I am working on will get me out front i think....time and testing will tell. I do know that I was only 0.1 second slower than a WRX putting WELL OVER stock number to the ground and STi suspension components....and that was BEFORE I installed an IC and the real rear coil overs...its got a chance. the wagon is more weight balanced than an RX or sedan. Lower CG too...

[QUOTE]So, what's the weight differance? His car vs an STi. If he's light enough then even with less HP, he still has a chance. Corners or a straight line. It's like a Pinto out running big block eights on the straights and in the corners.......see ya![/QUOTE]

Egggg-zactly. :drunk:

[QUOTE]the second pot by carfreak85[/QUOTE]

Yes, those are numbers....we al know them well. Im lighter....thats one of the keys.

Dont forget that the EA82 is CLOSED deck. Much power potential.

Now...warp3:
[QUOTE]Don't forget, though, that turbo engines don't really like aggressive cams. I'd go for the mild one, if at all.[/QUOTE]

If things work out in the next month with the $...I'll be using the mild ones...and going from there.

[QUOTE]Don't go too large on piping pre-turbo, though, or you'll hurt spool.[/QUOTE]

im going to port match the header pipes to the head exh ports...then doing a gradual decrease to the collector to the size of the VFxx exh housing inlet size. I think that will work quite well.

[QUOTE]VF22 is probably overkill, but go for it...hehe[/QUOTE]

Maybe...i think i will be sticking with the stock turbo, then moving to TD04 when i get a header made for it...then go from there. If I made the header right...and have everything else balanced well...the VF22 WILL spool quckly and do what I want it to.

[QUOTE]Depends...has anyone actually found the limits of the stock pieces yet?[/QUOTE]

NO, not in the ideal enviornment. I have found the limit running 20w50 in the wintertime with a fram oil filter, and running at 6400 RPMs for about 45 seconds. Rodbearing...gone. Lack of oil. Subspeed dude had an injector halfway clogged...and the side of the piston melted during a long hwy trip...

Otherwise...with everything on the engine STOCK (fuel system, oiling system with proper oil and such, cooling etc...) in perfect working order...i dont not believe anyone had found the true limit of the stock crank, rods, beaings and mostly, the pistons.

[QUOTE]Even though the Legacy Turbo and early WRX engines had this, it's interesting to note that the later models (including the infamous STi 22B), do not utilize this any longer.[/QUOTE]

Good point. It maybe not be needed....but...its something to think about....

[QUOTE]Don't forget that larger turbos (like the VF22) produce more CFM at lower psi than small turbos. Thus this amount of boost may not be necessary. (In other words, a VF22 will push more air (and thus make more hp) at 8psi than a VF7 would at 8psi.)[/QUOTE]

Good point. i was throwing that large numebr out just to see how people would react. Realistily....no more than 18 psi on any turbo I run....I will keep under 14 until I get a space engine and reliable second car that I can stand to drive for a long time...

[QUOTE]This is the area, I'm most worried about. The engine seems quite strong, but the drivetrain just wasn't designed for this kind of power and I don't know how well it would survive it.[/QUOTE]

Well....its taken the abuse of me and Steven...so i think the stock RX box might be up to the 300 hp task...if not...I'll go with a 6spd STi unit...and manually set the center diff to 50/50, and throw a real LSD in the front.

[QUOTE]All that fancy stereo crap is killing your trap speed yo [/QUOTE]

True. It wont be fancy or anything...just a simple 2 or 4 speaker single CD/tuner setup.

Garner time....
[QUOTE]yes, do tell... and what about knock control? elaborate please.... in the ignition control department....[/QUOTE]

Simple...I watched a WRX's timing as the load, Throt pos, engine speed and sucha nd such changed across the demands of driving one night riding with newscooby over on NASIOC...and learned much. Timing at cruise around 70 mph or better and maintaining speed...44+ spk adv....granted the ECU is aftermarket...a yoshio tune. At WOT and full boost...spk adv down to 14 deg.....hm. and out EA82T dizzys are at 25 or better during similar conditions? Hm...we are loosing something here.

From that ECU mirrors the Stock ECU timing control from what ive been told...

This is simple...knock sensor....senses knock...timing computer, or MS ecu...takes in all factors...intake air temp...air temp at TB, manually enter what fuel you are running, MAP, MAF, engine temp, exhaust temp and mixture....etc...and it adjsuts the timing accordingly.

Easy to say....but gotta program that all in...takes R&D.

[QUOTE]On the general idea, I do think you are insane, crazy and all that but just to motivate you to go for it I will say....[/QUOTE]

For sure, im insane and crazy.

[QUOTE]NO WAY WILL YOU BEAT AN STI IN THE TWISTIES!!!!![/QUOTE]

Yes it will.

[QUOTE]PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!!!![/QUOTE]

Given time...it will.

#19 Dennis ex24

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 09:18 PM

youre crazy.

and youve obviously never driven an STi before. making an RX faster than an STi is possible but not with an EA powerplant, and certainly not in the twisties.

oh and before i forget...why??

youre boosting an ea82T to manic levels when they barely take kindly to anything over 12psi, for what reason? also think of the financial dilemma. SOA had all the money in the world to sink into an est. 300hp rally RX in the eighties and couldnt keep the thing from going to hell...

drive any turbo impreza and youll forget all about wanting to boost the hell out of a motor that eats HG's at 7psi.

#20 JWX

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 02:28 AM

just to add something, the engine in the 22B had the oil jet thingys. and I don't it would be that hard on anything besides the wallet to make his wagon beat a STOCK STI

#21 baccaruda

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 02:50 AM

he's certainly going to get closer to beating an STI than anyone who ISN'T TRYING. Go Will!

#22 TheMeatWagon

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 03:00 AM

Dude... you are insane and crazy and totally rad for it. Me and my friends salute you. If i had the money id be attempting this exact same thing. A WRX STi is a fast car yes... but stock they are not super duper rally machines as most believe. You have to drop a lot of money into a stock sti to make it the sti that has won all the championships on 5 or 6 continents. I say if youve got the bank then itll happen. Youve got the support you need from most of us here sooo as long as youve got the will thisll happen. Goodluck man keep us posted. Oh and with that weight difference you got him in the twisties np


Cheers my man :drunk:

#23 WJM

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 07:52 AM

youre crazy.

and youve obviously never driven an STi before. making an RX faster than an STi is possible but not with an EA powerplant, and certainly not in the twisties.

oh and before i forget...why??

youre boosting an ea82T to manic levels when they barely take kindly to anything over 12psi, for what reason? also think of the financial dilemma. SOA had all the money in the world to sink into an est. 300hp rally RX in the eighties and couldnt keep the thing from going to hell...

drive any turbo impreza and youll forget all about wanting to boost the hell out of a motor that eats HG's at 7psi.


Ive rode in 2 STi's...one on R compunds...yes, they are fast. Ive driven two stock 02 WRXs, one 04 stock...and an 02 WRX wagon far from stock...STi suspension, sticky tires, monster TD04, ECU...etc...yes, it was fast.

The GL-10 at this current state of tune will certinly keep up with an STi in the twistys if it had some Victoracers on it, and if the STi was bone stock.

I am NOT making an RX faster.....its too heavy and not balanced enough. Im doing this to my 1986 GL-10 Turbo wagon. IF i had the $$ to spare for real...id do it to the 89 RX i have laying around...use lexan instead of glass.

Why? Beacuse I can, and no one else is going to do it. So, why not?

Ive daily driven an RX that was manically boosted to 14-17 psi everyday for quite a while....it drive perfectly. i give it hell I drive it thru water and all kinds of ****. It still get around 30 MPGs and smiles at mewhen i dirve it hard. Never had to touch the engine (except for the usual T-belts and oil changes), and its go some unknown amount of HIGH miles and ORIGINAL headgaskets.

If the head and block is TRUE on these engines...and you use OE headgaskets...thne these things DONT eat them. the onyl reason the 89 ate copper ones and cheap NAPA ones in 8 days of driving is because I didnt think enough to have the heads and block machined. They are way warped as I found out later.

the heads onthe GL-10 are as true as can be. the HGs on it are experimental...cheap NAPA ones with some experimental sealer....if Ihad OE ones and the $ to buy them at the time i did this engine...it would have those in it.

As for the late 80's RX 300 HP rally car....technology has improved since then. we have better, pure'r, more advanced alloys and way better engineering technology these days....so its possible...with the EA82T drivetrain.

Now, if I used a WRX or STi drivetrain, id be cheating in a way. it would be TOO easy. Bolt ons and stuff would give the EJ257 400 WHP in no time. Too easy and too much $ for me.

I want the pure challenge of taking this little know treasure no one makes parts for and make 300 WHP, and the chassis is light and easy to work with. many things from the legacy/impreza bolt on, among other things as my coil over stuff has proven....so bam...it will handle and pass the STi. it WILL happen.

Again, ive driven and rode in several fine exampled of tuned and stock turbo imprezas...im impressed...i want one...but...I like my EA82T Leone's better.

#24 Warp3

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:35 AM

the wagonw weighs in at 2664 lbs right now...STi and WRX are over 3100. Differences there...


Which reminds me...I weighed my 2.5RS at the divisional this weekend (they weighed all the Prepared, Modified and Street Modified cars (i.e., the classes with weight minimums) as part of impound). No driver, 13.5lb 15x7 Kosei K1s with 225 Victoracers, half-tank of gas, no spare, no jack, no back seat, 12.5lb battery, 9lb flywheel, DMS Gold 40mm coilovers (that's all the things I could think of that would affect the weight): 2725lbs! The stock curb weight is 2840lbs but that includes a full tank of gas as well. My minimum weight in SM is 2400lbs (2600 if I go forced induction).

NOTE: This also means to still be SM legal, your car must be at least 2600lbs (since your car fits the "Up to 3.0L, forced induction, OHC engine / AWD" designation). Since I am going to RWD with my RX, my weight minimum is a lighter 2400lbs instead. (Note that if you opt to switch to SM2, you can drop to 2300lbs, but then you are in a class with turbo Miatas (and on an national level some very fast Z06 Vettes).)

I do know that I was only 0.1 second slower than a WRX putting WELL OVER stock number to the ground and STi suspension components....and that was BEFORE I installed an IC and the real rear coil overs...its got a chance.


Driver ability distorts that comparison, though. Considering how well you did when that wagon was only on 3-cylinders, you'd probably beat the same WRX driver in his own car. LOL :)

If things work out in the next month with the $...I'll be using the mild ones...and going from there.


Let me know before you do. Since you already know the specs and have dealt with Delta cams before, I may send you some money and have you order me a set as well (depending on how the RX is running at the time...I'm back to having intake boot issues since I installed the intake I bought from you... :rolleyes: )

Maybe...i think i will be sticking with the stock turbo, then moving to TD04 when i get a header made for it...then go from there. If I made the header right...and have everything else balanced well...the VF22 WILL spool quckly and do what I want it to.


I believe the TD04 may very well be sufficient for the power needs you will have. Plus if you opt for a Monster TD04 (from DeadBolt Speed) it will spool faster and flow better than a standard TD04 as well. :)

Well....its taken the abuse of me and Steven...so i think the stock RX box might be up to the 300 hp task...if not...I'll go with a 6spd STi unit...and manually set the center diff to 50/50, and throw a real LSD in the front.


Don't forget the STi 6-speed is $5000 new (and good luck finding a used one). Besides, I'm slightly more worried about the axles and CV joints than the tranny (though I think both would have issues with that kind of torque).

FYI: I just did a recalc, based on the weight you listed and the STi's curb weight of 3298lbs, and to have the same power/weight ratio, you need 242 hp (and 242 lb-ft of torque for the same torque/weight ratio). That's a lot of power, but may very well be doable (albeit probably not cheaply).

Again, though, weight reduction makes a big dent in that figure. Using my 86RX's curb weight of 2520lbs cuts the power requirement to 229 hp instead. Considering the extra advantages you also get in braking and handling, you may want to try using weight reduction first, to reduce the power level you will need to attain before messing with power mods.

#25 WJM

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 09:34 AM

Driver ability distorts that comparison, though. Considering how well you did when that wagon was only on 3-cylinders, you'd probably beat the same WRX driver in his own car. LOL :)


Probably...;)



Let me know before you do. Since you already know the specs and have dealt with Delta cams before, I may send you some money and have you order me a set as well (depending on how the RX is running at the time...I'm back to having intake boot issues since I installed the intake I bought from you... :rolleyes: )


PM on the way....

Don't forget the STi 6-speed is $5000 new (and good luck finding a used one). Besides, I'm slightly more worried about the axles and CV joints than the tranny (though I think both would have issues with that kind of torque).


I dont think I will need such a trans anyhow...i might go for a 4eat AWD one....

FYI: I just did a recalc, based on the weight you listed and the STi's curb weight of 3298lbs, and to have the same power/weight ratio, you need 242 hp (and 242 lb-ft of torque for the same torque/weight ratio). That's a lot of power, but may very well be doable (albeit probably not cheaply).


That thing is HEAVY!!

Again, though, weight reduction makes a big dent in that figure. Using my 86RX's curb weight of 2520lbs cuts the power requirement to 229 hp instead. Considering the extra advantages you also get in braking and handling, you may want to try using weight reduction first, to reduce the power level you will need to attain before messing with power mods.


One more goal for the GL-10 beating the STi is to retain a fully stock interior as much as possible...if i need less weight, I will switch over to the project RX. As its...well...empty!




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