DooMeSuuby Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Thank you Subaru Super Sleuths for any help on this! Here are the conditions: '97 Legacy GT 2.5 - 135,000 miles Tempature needle - pointing straight through the "H". Removed theromstat. Drove fine for a month. Then... I had the radiator "sniffed" for hydrocarbons; A mechanic said: "Your hc's are through the roof; this is a blown head gasket." - Took it to another mechanic for 2nd opinion. He used a blue fluid to test radiator... he said: "No problem; no blown head gasket." So... Replaced thermostat (factory) - Drove fine for over a month, then... Tempature needle - pointing straight through the "H". No white smoke from tail pipe. No unusual effluent from tail pipe. No "mayonaise"-like substance on oil cap, or radiator cap. When cold (overnight) takes 5-10 mintues of running car, then symptom *sometimes* appears. When it happens, I run the Heater... the heater blows very hot air... except *sometimes*, when the heater is variable, the output cools dramatically, and the tempature needle moves up and down, or stays up. I don't know what other questions to ask. I don't know what other signs to look for. I am unable to find any Known issues with 1997 Legacy heads. I don't want to do a head job when it doesn't have to be done. All help appreciated, Thanks! David dasani25@hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 a lot of folks on this board would try everything else first, sometimes in relation to how much money you wish to spend. These cars have a know head gasket problem that manifests in several ways, and your car sounds like the first stages of the problem where it is easy to fix. Do a search on theotherskip who did his own gasket job. Again if it were my car at that age it would also get hoses, belts, a radiator, and new seals while it was apart. But keep in mind I am a fussy old fart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 a lot of folks on this board would try everything else first, sometimes in relation to how much money you wish to spend.These cars have a know head gasket problem that manifests in several ways, and your car sounds like the first stages of the problem where it is easy to fix. Do a search on theotherskip who did his own gasket job. Again if it were my car at that age it would also get hoses, belts, a radiator, and new seals while it was apart. But keep in mind I am a fussy old fart. Yep I agree. If you nip it in the butt now you will not have block issues later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya punk? Inspector Callahan [Clint Eastwood] in Dirty Harry, 1971 Somewhere between 5% and 30% of these cars, depending on who you speak with, will suffer head gasket problems, usually over about 90,000 miles. So you have to ask yourself - do I feel lucky? I did a pre-emptive head gasket job at 144,000 miles. I did this to prevent the pain, suffering and limited options that would ensue if the head gasket did blow. Namely, having to be towed; missing appointments; possibly destroying the engine and thus requiring a rebuild costing over $3,000 for a car worth $5-6,000; and having to arrange something else to drive while the car was in the shop for 4-10 days. The head gasket job and a little other work cost $1,250 and odds are I won't have to even think about the engine again until something past 200K miles. BTW, my car showed no outwards signs of head gasket problems. But one of the heads was pretty badly warped, which wouldn't have helped the situation. If you don't want to spend the money for head gaskets, sell the car NOW. If you like the car and want to keep it, schedule a head gasket job with your mechanic of choice when it's convenient, and you have alternative transportation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commuter Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 Everything is conspiring against you here. The year of car, the age, the 2.5L Phase I engine, the milage. I have a 97 OB with the same engine. The head gaskets went 2.5 yrs ago at 160k miles. I found a sludge in the coolant expansion tank, and bubbles. That is one thing you didn't mention. Bubbles. I never saw the temp gauge move, and I was watching it like a hawk with all the reports around that time. Everything seems to be pointing that way (HG). Commuter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DooMeSuuby Posted October 4, 2004 Author Share Posted October 4, 2004 Thanks, everybody. I am going crazy here. So many conflicting reports. I took it to the Subaru Dealer in Marin. Verbal description. The mechanic said: "This is a common issue on the '97. It's an external leak. Subaru has a recall on this; go buy a $3.00 bottle of Subaru Fluid conditioner. Problem solved" So, I'm walking on air... I added the conditioner, and took off, smiling like a lark. ~ Then, 30 minutes later, the same symptoms appear: Temp. guage fluctuating, in long slow movements; heater blowing hot, then cool. I stopped and checked the hoses: Top radiator hose was HOT and the lower hose was COOL. So, bingo! It's a water flow issue! Right? I call my mechanic; he says: "Yep, it's your radiator; or the water pump impeller. Take it to Jim, he's been doing Subaru's for 25 years; he's the best." I call Jim and describe everything. He says: "This is absolutely a blown Head Gasket. I seen this 100 times. This is first stage. Its' a little tear; produces air bubbles in the radiator. Does the overflow level climb? (Yes, apparently it does) This means the water is being pushed up out of the radiator. This is a $3,000 job." So, I FREAK OUT and start wringing my hands. Then the phone rings: It's my mechanic: He says: "Danny from the other shop just came over and asked me: Hey, where is that Subaru you had? I just gotta tell you, we had a '98 in here with the same conditions: the lower 1/3 of the radiator was bad. WE replaced the radiator and its perfect. Just thought I'd tell you..." ****! I feel like i'm going bananas... I'm taking it in tomorrow to have a full radiator flush. If it's not a radiator, I guess it's going in for a head job. Oh did I tell you on my flight home last night my boss told me I was fired? Phew... Any further insights are great. I appreciate this community, thank you. David Everything is conspiring against you here. The year of car, the age, the 2.5L Phase I engine, the milage. I have a 97 OB with the same engine. The head gaskets went 2.5 yrs ago at 160k miles. I found a sludge in the coolant expansion tank, and bubbles. That is one thing you didn't mention. Bubbles. I never saw the temp gauge move, and I was watching it like a hawk with all the reports around that time. Everything seems to be pointing that way (HG). Commuter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 If you change the radiator it may get better for a while by being cooler. It sounds like harvest time is not over in Marin. The goop is only for phase two engines with an external weep, not a phase 1 with an internal, which is waht you have. There really is no excuse for a dealer not knowing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Thanks, everybody. I am going crazy here. So many conflicting reports. I took it to the Subaru Dealer in Marin. Verbal description. The mechanic said: "This is a common issue on the '97. It's an external leak. Subaru has a recall on this; go buy a $3.00 bottle of Subaru Fluid conditioner. Problem solved" This is another example of why dealerships are crap. They are part swappers only!! The external leak is on 00-03 and the bottle only fixes them not 96-99 internal leak issues. Find a good Subaru specialty shop, have them look at it. I call Jim and describe everything. He says: "This is absolutely a blown Head Gasket. I seen this 100 times. This is first stage. Its' a little tear; produces air bubbles in the radiator. Does the overflow level climb? (Yes, apparently it does) This means the water is being pushed up out of the radiator. This is a $3,000 job." $3000 is very high! You can get them done for $1200 at most Subaru shops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaltree Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I have a 1997 Outback with 130,000 and it *had* a 2.5L Phase 1 engine. I had the exact same symtoms as you mention, but also had the bubbles. I tried every approach you did. Swapped thermostats twice, flushed the entire system too. Without a doubt, I know it's the head gaskets. If there are hydrocarbons, it's a head gasket. The local subaru dealers in Boise really suck. They totally missed the diagnosis. Infact, they said that to diagnose the issue - the car had to be overheating while they were looking at it. Funny thing is - if it were overheating, I wouldn't be driving it. Something else to check... In my car, if I reved the engine to 2500 rpm, it would typically reduce the temperature. My guess is air bubbles from the gasket were building up and blocking the cooling system. By reving the engine, this was forcing the water pump to increase the pressure and would eventually push the air-lock through. Just a guess though. At this point, my engine has severly overheated so many times that I know the heads are probably shot. It's $600 per head and another good chunk of change for whatever else is needed. I decided to replace the engine with the EJ22, a 2.2 Liter engine provided from a company called "Colorado Component Rebuilders". My outback is currently in the shop this week getting the new engine installed. Total cost will be around $2800 or so for the new engine. The issue I ran into is I love the car. Gets better fuel economy than an SUV, and still drives like a car. The car just fits me great - but had a crappy engine. So, I decided to replace the engine with what most Subaru mechanics describe as Subaru's "bullet-proof" engine, the EJ22. Hopefully, this will give me another 100k... Best of luck in your delima. I feel as though I am nearing the end of this major pain in the ... Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I have a 1997 Outback with 130,000 and it *had* a 2.5L Phase 1 engine. I had the exact same symtoms as you mention, but also had the bubbles. I tried every approach you did. Swapped thermostats twice, flushed the entire system too. Without a doubt, I know it's the head gaskets. If there are hydrocarbons, it's a head gasket. The local subaru dealers in Boise really suck. They totally missed the diagnosis. Infact, they said that to diagnose the issue - the car had to be overheating while they were looking at it. Funny thing is - if it were overheating, I wouldn't be driving it. Something else to check... In my car, if I reved the engine to 2500 rpm, it would typically reduce the temperature. My guess is air bubbles from the gasket were building up and blocking the cooling system. By reving the engine, this was forcing the water pump to increase the pressure and would eventually push the air-lock through. Just a guess though. At this point, my engine has severly overheated so many times that I know the heads are probably shot. It's $600 per head and another good chunk of change for whatever else is needed. I decided to replace the engine with the EJ22, a 2.2 Liter engine provided from a company called "Colorado Component Rebuilders". My outback is currently in the shop this week getting the new engine installed. Total cost will be around $2800 or so for the new engine. The issue I ran into is I love the car. Gets better fuel economy than an SUV, and still drives like a car. The car just fits me great - but had a crappy engine. So, I decided to replace the engine with what most Subaru mechanics describe as Subaru's "bullet-proof" engine, the EJ22. Hopefully, this will give me another 100k... Best of luck in your delima. I feel as though I am nearing the end of this major pain in the ... Kevin Nice a 2.2 swap in!! I still think the 2.5 is a great motor, just crappy HG. If you fix it soon enough your 2.5 will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subie Gal Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 had the exact same symptoms on my Phase I and it was bad HG's... i did what you're doing... (thermo, radiator, hoses replaced...) and ended up needing a new block as well as i drove it too long with the issue and the block cracked from heat damage do yourself a favor face the music and fix it now before it gets much much worse (if it's not too late) Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DooMeSuuby Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 Subie Gal, and everyone, Final analysis today from a radiator shop: guy said it's a "big hold" - over 200 HC's on a sniff test, and on the fluid test the color "shot to yellow right away" How long did you drive your car....? i.e. this problem first surfaced 3 months ago... took out the thermo at that time... it drove fine for many weeks, then came back... each replaced w/ factory thermostat... drove for a few weeks, then it came back... I have no idea how long I drove it that first time with the needle sticking to High H... the next times, I've only driven it 5-10 minutes max when it gets hot like that... then I pull over, let it cool down, add fluid and keep going... Also, each morning when it's cold, it takes 15-20 minutes for the Tempature guage to begin acting up.... I'm just wondering if I should even begin this process, if y'all think that my block may be cracked already. thanks, sadly, thanks David had the exact same symptoms on my Phase I and it was bad HG's... i did what you're doing... (thermo, radiator, hoses replaced...) and ended up needing a new block as well as i drove it too long with the issue and the block cracked from heat damage do yourself a favor face the music and fix it now before it gets much much worse (if it's not too late) Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 then it is pretty easy to see what you have. Good chance its only the gaskets. Keep fingers crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DooMeSuuby Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 Anyone from the San Francisco Bay Area - Marin County who can recommend an honest Subaru mechanic to do this HG job? One mechanic says he has done 50 of them... wants to charge me $2000 - $3000! One guy who says he has done 3 of them wants to charge me $1200, he says: "that's just taking it down, milling it, replacing the gaskets" Thanks, df then it is pretty easy to see what you have. Good chance its only the gaskets. Keep fingers crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trijker Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I'm amazed how similar your symptoms are to mine. 1997 GT2.5, 92Kmiles. The thing that kept me hoping it wasn't the head gasket was the fact that the compression readings (cold and "warm") were all equal (214 +/-2psi). But it sure enough bubbles and blows coolant out of the overflow tank. Also fails to suck it back from the O.T. on cooling. I'm trying to decide whether to pull the engine or try to do it in the car. If I could determine which head it was. But no coolant is getting into a cylinder, so I can't figure that out. Have you fixed yours yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 a head gasket just isn't that tough. The guy who quoted $1200 isn't that far off. The Subaru dealer in Redwood City did mine and it was about $2500. If the $1200 guy has a good reputation and backs his work it looks like half price to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 It's a HG. No question. SubieGal and I finally agree on something ! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richierich Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I have a Subaru Repair shop in Portland OR. We do about 1) 2.5 DOHC a month. My prices range from $1150-1700. The one for $1700, was the whole enchilada, timingbelt, waterpump, front crank seal, cam seals, rear crank seal, oil pan, spark plugs, wires, clutch kit and radiator. I always suggest replacing the radiator. It has over 100k miles on it and it could be partially plugged, in addition it has had oil and HC in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Here in the Bay area our mechanics are fighting incredible shop rents, tough business rules, EPA, and the cost of housing is sky high. If a guy knew he needed major surgery it would probably pay to drive up your way, have a vacation, and come back with an overhauled car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Since you have a fair amount of miles on the engine already you might want to think about getting a rebuilt engine from CCR. It will cost more doing it this way but then you will have a zero time engine basically and can look forward to many more trouble free miles, from the engine at least. The folks at CCR know there stuff so I'm sure you will get the latest revisions in parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slo5oh Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 My brother found a good subie mechanic in Sac. Post back here if you want me to call him and get the name and #. I know an honest mechanic out in Modesto. He's not a subie guy, but he's honest, reasonable and good at what he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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