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shop manual ambiguity


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16 replies to this topic

#1 dptyrob

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 09:30 PM

Hello everyone. I've just purchased a 1990 Loyale 4wd Station Wagon with 117k on the clock for my wife (yeah, we're poor). It sounds like, and would appear, from inspection through the wheel, that the right front pads are down to the metal. I am planning on purchasing new rotors and pads tomorrow and sticking them on before I let her drive the car. In preparation for this job (and the others that are sure to follow because I am obsessive compulsive about everything being perfect), I have purchased a Haynes shop manual. In the manual it says that you may have to use a puller to pull the hub and rotor assembly. I think I have one big enough for that job, but I won't know for sure until I get started tomorrow. Anyone have any ideas on whether or not I'll need one?

Additionally, I like to check, clean, and repack wheel bearings when I do a brake job. The Haynes manual I purchased recommended this in one chapter, but in another chapter it turns right around and says that the bearings are pressed in and that not only do you have to pull the steering knuckle to have them pressed out, but you also have to pull the axle shaft with it to have the spindle pressed out of the hub/knuckle. What I want to know is:

1. Does the spindle really have to be pressed out?

2. Assuming that the bearings are pressed in, is there anything you can do to help grease them with them still in?

I bought this car from a guy with whom I am acquainted through work and I feel like he is an honest person and would let me know about problems with the car if he knew about them. Unfortunately he knows nothing about mechanics, and he doesn't know what all has been done to the car in the 4 years that he's owned it. He only knows that he's had it in to the shop on several occasions and paid them to fix stuff when it breaks (except he knows that he just had the tranny overhauled a year ago and has the receipt that went with that). I'm a little bit concerned about the timing belt, as he's not sure if it's been changed. He did have someone put in some sort of seals somewhere a couple of years ago, but he's not sure if they were the crank and cam seals and/or whether or not new timing belts would have been installed at that time. There is an oil leak in front and I'm going to try and track it down and fix it. I'm thinking possibly the oil pan gasket (I hope, as it would appear that it's easy to get to).

Anyway, that's a little about the car I just bought. I'd appreciate any suggestions that any of you knowlegeable folks might have.

Thanks.

Rob


#2 Snowman

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 09:55 PM

As will become more and more apparent, the Haynes manual is kinda crappy for these cars.

You do not need a puller of any sort for this job. Before taking anything apart, jack the car up and try to move that wheel to see if there is any bearing slop. If there isn't any, just repack. If there is, then use the procedure I'll describe later to change them.

After removing the brake caliper and taking the brake line out of its holder that is attached to the strut(just cut the holder so that it can be bent outward, leaving a gap the line can fit through), use a 36mm socket or wrench to remove the castle nut, take off the washer, then use a small chisel to dislodge the cone washer that is now exposed. Now pull the hub/rotor off to expose the stub axle and bearings. Remove the ball joint and lower control arm at this point. Put the castle nut back on so that you have something to hit with a large deadblow hammer or similar implement of destruction. Loosen the three nuts that hold the strut to the strut tower, then pull out on the strut while smacking the axle/nut, and it should separate without much fuss. Remove the strut nuts and the strut. You should be able to do a decent job packing the bearings without removing them, just push grease in from the outside on both ends, and do the best you can to push the spacer aside and get some in that way too. You should probably replace both the inner and outer seals at this point.

If you decide the bearings need to be replaced, you don't need a press. Be warned, the bearings will be destroyed by removing them in this fashion, so make sure you've got new ones. Push the spacer aside, and use a brass drift punch and hammer to tap the bearing out, reaching in from the opposite side. Do the same thing on the other bearing. To install, do the reverse, except make dead sure that you ONLY tap on the outer race, as hitting the inner race will deform the balls and they will last about 10,000 miles if that. Just tap in a star pattern like you're tightening lug nuts until the sound that the tapping makes gets solid, indicating that it's all the way in there. Just make sure you don't forget to put the spacer back in (it can be reused 99% of the time).

Good luck, and don't be afraid to ask more questions.

#3 dptyrob

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 10:16 PM

Thanks for the 411 Snowman. I was hoping the Haynes manual was just pulling my leg. I've found they show you the hardest, least efficient way to do a number of things over the years (I could go on hours about that, and sometimes I do), but in the end I'm probably better off with one as without. ;)

In regards to removing the stub axle, I was wondering what you might think about this possible alternative to getting it out. Instead of separating the ball joint, how about unbolting the control arm? I've done that with some other front wheel drive vehicles I've had in the past, not only because I felt like it reduced the chance that I'll need to have the front end realigned, but because it seems I almost always rupture the grease boot on the ball joint when I separate them.


#4 MilesFox

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 10:19 PM

wheel bearings can last the life of the car, but will only last as long as the seals do. the spindle is actually the outer part of the cv axle, which presses through an inner and outer wheel bearing. if the bearings arent making any noise you can let them go for now

as far as changing the rotor, you will have to remove the 36 mm nut from the hub. remove the 14mm bolt on the bottom of the caliper, swing it out of the way. you then have to remove the caliper mounting bracket by taking out the 2 17mm bolts in back. you do not have to dis connect the brake line or parking brake cable.

with all that out of the way, the hub/rotor will slide off the axle shaft(spindle). if the cone washe does not come off, tap around the hub with a hammer, or tap a screwdriver into the split. there are 4 14mm bolts that hold the hub to the rotor, remove them and tap the hub away with a hammer. put on new rotor in reverse sequence. install the nut to about 145 ft lbs(or snug the nut and 1/4 turn) make sure you install the cone washer and the flat washer. the flat washer will be slightly concave, put the concave side inward

now, the piston on the caliper has to be turned clockwise to reess it, you cannot just push it in like conventional calipers, this is die to the fact that the parking brake is on the front brakes. there is a special yool ou can buy for this, but if you cant find one you can use some channel pliers to grip the piston and turn it, and oncce its so far in you can use the jaw end of some pliers against the notches on the oiston to turn it

if you go as far as doing the wheel bearings, you have to remove the axle. with all the hub, rotor, and caliper removed. undo the tierod end and the ball joint with a pickle fork. use a long bar between the body and the lower contro arm to get the ball joint shaft out of the hole. use a 3/16" drift punch to drive the axle pin from the inner end. drive it out from the concave hole.
now pull the axle away from the tranny. with the strut flopping around and the axle away from the tranny, thread the castle nut on the axle shaft so the flat side is flush with the end. use a 3 lb hammer and tap the axle through the knuckle, once its so far use a pipe or a 1/2" extension to drive it the rest of the way through. be careful not to damage the threads. you can use the round end of a ball peene hammer against the dimple of the axle shaft, hold it there and hit the ball beene with te 3 lb hammer.

once tha axle is out, there are your bearings. to remove the bearings use the drift punch from the outside to drive out against the circumfrence of the inner bearing. remove the spacer between. turn the strut aroud 180 deg so you can drive the outer bearing from the inside.

to install the bearings, seat them in what you can, and use the 36mm socket and a hammer to drive the bearing in and seat it. same for the other bearing.

now instert the axle what you can into the bearing. put the inner end of the axle agianst the tranny. the holes only line up one way, so make sure you are not 180 off. insert the punch to be sure the holes align. drive the pin in from the concave side.
now that the axle is on the tranny, you can tap around the knuckle to get the axle shaft through enough to catch a thrad with the castle nut. thread on the axle nut only to draw the axle through, then remove it and install the washers. turn the axle nut till snug, the torque to 145 or 1.4 turn. now use tha bar to install th ball joint, then tie rod, the assemble the calipera nd rotor assembly.

it sounds like a lot of work, but its more about technique than it is about fancy tools and equipment. it may sound complicated, but its a repair(such as a broken axle) thet can be done on the side of the road or on the trail with a minimum of tools

here is some reading material that will cover the timing belts, engine removal, and general maintenance for your subaru!

http://www.warpthree...ice/service.htm
www.warpthree.com/milesfox (main index)

if you find the ball joint removal too tricky tou can undo the lower control arm, radius rod, and swaybar, such as edrach describes in his axle procedure. either way, you have to be careful not to damage the axle threads. you can use a block of wood as an alternative to the ballpeen method, but wood has a tendency to split. the idea is to not have to take the kuckle off and find a press and all that.

some visual from this message board
http://www.ultimates...ht=axle removal

try a search for "edrach axle" i tried to find the article but it was probably removed because i posted there too

#5 TomRhere

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 11:14 PM

I use a block of aluminum against the axleshaft end for whammering the axle out of the hub.

On the lower ball-joint removal for the axle removal. There's a pinch-bolt on the knuckle that holds the ball-joint cup. Just remove the bolt, and insert a fat bladed screwdriver in the slot to wedge it open. Then put a strong bar or shovel handle across the reaction rod and under the engine crossmember, right about where the E-brake cable support bracket is, pry down to release the ball-joint.

Turn the steering wheel towards the side that you're working on. This will give you enough free room to get knuckle assembly free from axle.

Recommend re-torquing the axle nut after about 100 miles of driving. Sometimes, things just don't seat right on assembly and it'll loosen up after a bit.

I've replaced wheel bearings both using a press and on my garage floor with punch and hammer. Easier for me to use punch and hammer method.

#6 MilesFox

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 11:58 PM

one thing about the haynes book for timing belts is that if you look only at the picturs, you will do the job wrong. you have to read the text to catch all the stuff the pics leave out. the pics missed a step about turning the crank before doing the other belt.

but i do find the haynes book useful for the electrical information and diagrams. but it lacks in detail about servicing the transmission and wheel bearings. on the rear bearings there is a spindle that goes thru like the front, but the axle is removable from that, i.e. there iare axle pins on both sides of the rear axle. you need a special tool to remove a retainer to get the inner rear wheel bearing out.

chiltons book is about useless, its too in general and not specific enough. i like the haynes layout but some of it is lost from the "british translations"

#7 dptyrob

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 12:37 AM

now, the piston on the caliper has to be turned clockwise to reess it, you cannot just push it in like conventional calipers, this is die to the fact that the parking brake is on the front brakes.

Wow. I'm glad you said that. I don't think I've ever come across a car with the parking brakes on the front. I'm sure I would have figured it out when I found a parking brake cable or something, but it'll be easier to grab that tool for turning the piston when I grab the other parts.

#8 dptyrob

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 10:20 PM

Well guys, I got my front brakes done today. I forgot to look for that tool to turn the pistons back into the calipers. It took some doing, but I finally got them turned back in with some pliers. Judging from the condition of the boots on those pistons, I'd say the calipers will probably need replacing at the next brake job. Same goes for the rubber brake hoses. They look terribly rotten.

I didn't mess with the bearings this go-round. There wasn't any slop and what I could see of the outer bearings when I pulled the hubs off looked good.

My next project will be to change all of the filters & fluids and check the drums. Time & $$$ are tight, so it'll have to wait for this weekend.

Anyway, I appreciate all of the info. I feel a lot better about whether or not I'll be able to fix other problems that might pop up with bearings, joints, cv joints, etc.


#9 rweddy

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 10:42 PM

now, the piston on the caliper has to be turned clockwise to reess it, you cannot just push it in like conventional calipers, this is die to the fact that the parking brake is on the front brakes. there is a special yool ou can buy for this, but

Are you sure this is still the case with Legacies?
My 91 you do not need to turn the pistons in, like my older GL's had to be.

#10 stock90

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Posted 03 October 2004 - 11:41 PM

Are you sure this is still the case with Legacies?
My 91 you do not need to turn the pistons in, like my older GL's had to be.


It's a loyale, a loyale is basically a GL.

#11 rweddy

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 08:32 AM

It's a loyale, a loyale is basically a GL.


My bad, I though he was posting about a 90 Legacy.

:banghead:

#12 thealleyboy

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 11:36 AM

Good stuff!! All excellent advice.

I'm one of those people that would have those bearings pressed out & in, rather than doing them myself - even though, as described above, it can be done successfully. Too easy to mess up the axle threads, and I don't like the idea of beating on a brand new wheel bearing.

As far as the Haynes, I am not as down on it as a lot of people are. It has a fair amount of Subaru-specific information, and only costs around $15 new. But I will say that you should try to suppliement it with other Subaru books, as well as information you'll come across on this Board.

When tackling something new, I have found that the best approach is to look at multiple sources (including "general" automotive books), and making an educated guess as to the best way to proceed. The Fugi FSM's are excellent for Sube-specifics, but do not cover fundamantals. You can piece together the basics from the other sources. Unfortunately, there is no definitive "shop manual" for these cars.

good luck, John

#13 rweddy

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 11:47 AM

Good stuff!! All excellent advice.

I'm one of those people that would have those bearings pressed out & in, rather than doing them myself - even though, as described above, it can be done successfully. Too easy to mess up the axle threads, and I don't like the idea of beating on a brand new wheel bearing.

As far as the Haynes, I am not as down on it as a lot of people are. It has a fair amount of Subaru-specific information, and only costs around $15 new. But I will say that you should try to suppliement it with other Subaru books, as well as information you'll come across on this Board.

When tackling something new, I have found that the best approach is to look at multiple sources (including "general" automotive books), and making an educated guess as to the best way to proceed. The Fugi FSM's are excellent for Sube-specifics, but do not cover fundamantals. You can piece together the basics from the other sources. Unfortunately, there is no definitive "shop manual" for these cars.

good luck, John

Another Great book is the "How to keep your subaru alive for the complete idiot". Really good step by step stuff.

BTW anyone know what happened to this site?
http://bugfuel.tripod.com/pics.html

Anyone have the pdf for the book?

#14 thealleyboy

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 01:16 PM

Yes, I really like the 2nd edition of HTKYSA. It's not as useful for the latter EA82's, but is a source of excellent Sube-specific information.

Another way to get up to speed on these cars is to strip one down for parts. If you take your time dismantling one, and jot down notes in your Haynes (or other manual), you'll have the kind of detailed info you want and need (clarifying info, diagrams, shortcuts - even socket/wrench sizes, wire colors etc).

John

#15 TomRhere

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 01:30 PM

Another way to get up to speed on these cars is to strip one down for parts. If you take your time dismantling one, and jot down notes in your Haynes (or other manual), you'll have the kind of detailed info you want and need (clarifying info, diagrams, shortcuts - even socket/wrench sizes, wire colors etc).

John


I agree with that statement, totally. Stripped out many a car in my days, and scrapping out the '86, really gave me some "insight" to these here Subaru's, as to how things are put together.

#16 MilesFox

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 08:13 PM

as far as the legacies go the parking brake is in the rear, so the front calipers do not have to be turned.

as far as the haynes book goes, i remember when i was over to alleyboys peeping the FSM, i realized that a lot of the diagrams in the haynes book are straight off the fsm.

my advice for using the haynes book, READ THE TEXT

#17 Nug

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 11:30 PM

I second the notion that the Chilton's manual is a complete waste of paper. It's the most obtuse thing I've ever read.




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