Feeling helpless

[suprmanlives]

I wiil take this time to say hello to everyone. I really love both of my out backs. I have a 96 legacy outback and a 2001 VDC 3.0. Last week I was informed that I suffered total engine failure on my 2001 vdc. They said they found only 1.5 quarts of oil in the car. They immediately went to the "we don't have current oil maintenance on the car" story. I asked if there was issue with the install of the oil filter of pan screw, they said no. I have invoices from the entire life of the car, and it's really been babied. I've done the oil changes the last two times so the burden of changes has been put on me. With further investigation the mechanics I've talked to are baffled by the car burning 4.5 quarts of oil. Besides subaru service everyone else seems to think that there was some major failure in the engine causing the burn and sludge in the engine and oil filter. "Sludge in the oil filter" I have been told is a sign that lack of oil changes is not the issue cause sludge shouldn't be in oil filter. This is alo a sign of internal burning. Since I purchased the car I have expressed that I smell something burning after long high speed driving, like highway trips. I would have them check for oil leaks during changes, but they never found any. But now I think something long term has been happening. Their only excuse for where the 4.5 quarts of oil went was burn-off which now that I've sought othere opinions I realize is far fetched for a 3 year old car or the vehicles non ability to inform the driver it's out of oil. I really need suggestions as to the possible falures that produce sludge and oil burn with no leaks and no visible engine failure until actual engine death. The first 60 or 70,000 miles the car was serviced at the dealership and there are 82,000 on the car. I don't buy the burn off even with lack of oil changes. They want 3 to $4000 for the repairs on the car. Double what I paid for an extended warrenty has been repair at subaru cost and I think they're trying to not have to consume engine failure costs

[The Dude]

Which car had the engine failure?

[The Dude]

First two D-I-Y oil changes? Hmmmmm........you know about changing the crushable oil drain plug metal "O" ring EVERY oil change, right? If you didn't change the crushable, one use only, metal "O" ring. , I think I know what happened to your oil.

[suprmanlives]

Which car had the engine failure?

the 3.0 vdc

[suprmanlives]

First two D-I-Y oil changes? Hmmmmm........you know about changing the crushable oil drain plug metal "O" ring EVERY oil change, right? If you didn't change the crushable, one use only, metal "O" ring. , I think I know what happened to your oil.

no Never heard of it nor read it in the manual

[The Dude]

IF the 3.0L is like the 2.5L engine, there is a metal "crush" washer that must be replaced every oil change. The crushable washer seals the drain plug, and keeps the oil from leaking out of the engine. Given your description, I suspect that the oil leaked out of your engine in some manner. You would probably have a huge amount of black smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe if the oil was burned in the engine.

 

IF the 3.0L engine requires the "crush" washer, it is possible, maybe even probable, that the engine oil was lost through the leaky drain plug.

The sludge in the oil filter might be the result of the engine and oil overheating. When the oil fell to a critical level, the remaining oil would be "cooked" by the unlubricated internal engine parts. It is possible for the motor oil to be critically overheated WITHOUT the engine overtemp light going off, since the engine overtemp sensor monitors the engine coolant.

 

This is my best guess. Please thoroughly research this problem yourself, before you reach any conclusions.

[Gnuman]

Was there ever any sign of any kind of leak under the car after the two D-I-Y oil changes were done? While possable, it is highly unlikely that 4.5 qt of oil can leak out without giving some clue as to its departure. . .

[The Dude]

Was there ever any sign of any kind of leak under the car after the two D-I-Y oil changes were done? While possable, it is highly unlikely that 4.5 qt of oil can leak out without giving some clue as to its departure. . .

An even better question is, "how often was the oil checked". I believe The oil level should be checked daily for at least two days after an oil change. After that time, the oil level should checked weekly.

I don't always check my oil weekly. but I ALWAYS check my oil for several day after an oil change, no matter who did the oil change. One quik-lube idiot drained my transmission and then overfilled my crankcase. Fortunately, I checked the oil level before I left the quick-lube shop.

 

The burning smell that "suprmanlives" noted after long highway drives was probably a leaky shaft seal, a very common problem in Subarus. Subaru oil seal leaks are annoying, but very little oil is usually lost.

[shimonmor]

I don't know if I buy the crush washer theory...yes it's possible, but if that drain plug is tight, it shouldn't leak. I've done every oil change on my wife's 99 Outback with 102k miles every 3k miles which comes out to 34 oil changes and I've only changed the crush washer once and I've never had a drop of oil leak out the plug. Again...it could have happend in this case but I think the drain plug must not have been tightened for this to occur. As to what happened to your oil...I don't know. Could be human error. I agree that if you burned the oil you would see blue/grey smoke (I know...I work on oil burners a.k.a. diesels). Good luck.

[Setright]

The dealer here uses aluminium washers. These do get squashed a bit, but are not real crush washers. I agree that only a loose pan-bolt will leak any considerable amount of oil.

 

The question that bothers me is "Why didn't the oil pressure warning light come on?" 1.5 quarts is not enough to keep the pressure up.

 

Of course, the 4.5 quarts that left in silence are also stupifying.

[The Dude]

I don't know if I buy the crush washer theory...yes it's possible, but if that drain plug is tight, it shouldn't leak. I've done every oil change on my wife's 99 Outback with 102k miles every 3k miles which comes out to 34 oil changes and I've only changed the crush washer once and I've never had a drop of oil leak out the plug. Again...it could have happend in this case but I think the drain plug must not have been tightened for this to occur. As to what happened to your oil...I don't know. Could be human error. I agree that if you burned the oil you would see blue/grey smoke (I know...I work on oil burners a.k.a. diesels). Good luck.

I agree with you that a crush washer might not be needed IF the drain plug was tightened properly. Pros, like yourself, and experienced shade tree mechanics can tighten a drain plug by "feel". But I have feeling that "suprmanlives" is a newbie, and he didn't use a torque wrench to tighten the drain plug. Most newbies are very concerned about stripping the the drain plug, and as a result tend to undertighten the bolt. With a new crush washer tightening is not so critical because the washer will compensate for a certain amount of slack.

Check the engine thoroughly for sources of leaks. Valve covers, oil pan, seals, the usual suspects. There should be PLENTY of left over oil on the motor surface if there was a leak in those areas. There are areas we know where it didn't leak, because if that much leaked oil had dripped on a hot exhaust component suprmanlives would have been driving around with a gas mask on.

4.5 quarts of oil wasn't burnt in the engine. It didn't leak out from the usual spots. Add in a newbie mechanic with no new crush washer, and I think it leaked out the drain plug.

 

Which is why I recomend the Fumoto drain valve for everyone who changes their own oil. Torque the Fumoto valve when you install it, and then forget about it.

[suprmanlives]

I actually asked for them to check for leaks so that I could be sure that it wasn't my fault. They found none which is why I found it hard to beleive I lost 4.5 qts of oil from engine burn off. Thanks for replying really trying to find reasonable explanation. 60000 miles of oil changes every 3000 miles and then diy about every four. Even if I went 2 or 3000 over a 3 year old engine should hack it just fine you would think. I also have trouble with the fact that subarus hqave an oil pressure light but no oil level light. Since it holds pressure til it's almost dry, the engine will literaaly run itself to death, that seems dumb.

Was there ever any sign of any kind of leak under the car after the two D-I-Y oil changes were done? While possable, it is highly unlikely that 4.5 qt of oil can leak out without giving some clue as to its departure. . .

[suprmanlives]

It just seems crazy that the temp light only react to coolant temp and the oil light checks pressure but not levels. Seems like the cars have issues with how the alarm lights are set up. I appreciate all of your help. I love my 96 outback that's gotten me alot of places and never died til I as back home in the driveway. My 2001 3.0 is great. The dealership was awesome til the service desk people changed, now I just feel like they are taking advantage of a non-machanic by only looking for the explanation that doesn't cost them a dime.

 

IF the 3.0L is like the 2.5L engine, there is a metal "crush" washer that must be replaced every oil change. The crushable washer seals the drain plug, and keeps the oil from leaking out of the engine. Given your description, I suspect that the oil leaked out of your engine in some manner. You would probably have a huge amount of black smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe if the oil was burned in the engine.

 

IF the 3.0L engine requires the "crush" washer, it is possible, maybe even probable, that the engine oil was lost through the leaky drain plug.

The sludge in the oil filter might be the result of the engine and oil overheating. When the oil fell to a critical level, the remaining oil would be "cooked" by the unlubricated internal engine parts. It is possible for the motor oil to be critically overheated WITHOUT the engine overtemp light going off, since the engine overtemp sensor monitors the engine coolant.

 

This is my best guess. Please thoroughly research this problem yourself, before you reach any conclusions.

[suprmanlives]

awesome tip I'll have it checked

An even better question is, "how often was the oil checked". I believe The oil level should be checked daily for at least two days after an oil change. After that time, the oil level should checked weekly.

I don't always check my oil weekly. but I ALWAYS check my oil for several day after an oil change, no matter who did the oil change. One quik-lube idiot drained my transmission and then overfilled my crankcase. Fortunately, I checked the oil level before I left the quick-lube shop.

 

The burning smell that "suprmanlives" noted after long highway drives was probably a leaky shaft seal, a very common problem in Subarus. Subaru oil seal leaks are annoying, but very little oil is usually lost.

[suprmanlives]

thanks. I'll admit I wasn't a saint about oil changes, but never over 5 and I do alot of highway miles so I figure I can get a few extra.

I don't know if I buy the crush washer theory...yes it's possible, but if that drain plug is tight, it shouldn't leak. I've done every oil change on my wife's 99 Outback with 102k miles every 3k miles which comes out to 34 oil changes and I've only changed the crush washer once and I've never had a drop of oil leak out the plug. Again...it could have happend in this case but I think the drain plug must not have been tightened for this to occur. As to what happened to your oil...I don't know. Could be human error. I agree that if you burned the oil you would see blue/grey smoke (I know...I work on oil burners a.k.a. diesels). Good luck.

[suprmanlives]

they said that the subaru will hold pressure almost til empty, hm dumb. And the temp light registers overheating by lack of coolant not excess friction from lack of oil and there's no oil level light. The warning gauges seem to do little to keep the car from running it's self to death.

The dealer here uses aluminium washers. These do get squashed a bit, but are not real crush washers. I agree that only a loose pan-bolt will leak any considerable amount of oil.

 

The question that bothers me is "Why didn't the oil pressure warning light come on?" 1.5 quarts is not enough to keep the pressure up.

 

Of course, the 4.5 quarts that left in silence are also stupifying.

[friendly_jacek]

Strange story. But since stories like this surface occasionally on all forums, I decided to do no DIY oil changes during warranty, so no one can waive the warranty for lack of oil changes.

 

One more observation: all car manuals tell to check oil levels during every fueling, or weekly, or so. Now the question: how many people do you see acctualy doing it during fueling? I seem to be the only one doing it in my city!

 

Coming back to the case:

1. Do you have dated receipts for the oil/filter you used when DIY oil changes were done. Sometimes it can be offered as a proof of change (a weak one, I admit).

2. Do we know the time interval it took for the loss of these many qt of oil? In other words, when oil level check was done before the failure?

[suprmanlives]

Yes we even got the extended warrenty but after 60000 miles of paying the dealer to change my oil I've done the last 20000 or so my self. All other issues are taken to the dealer immediatelyand with the service history if the chanes go over a 1000 or 2 a 3 year old engine should be burning 4.5 qts. No issues were found with the actual physical state of the oil changes just the duration of time in between.

Strange story. But since stories like this surface occasionally on all forums, I decided to do no DIY oil changes during warranty, so no one can waive the warranty for lack of oil changes.

 

One more observation: all car manuals tell to check oil levels during every fueling, or weekly, or so. Now the question: how many people do you see acctualy doing it during fueling? I seem to be the only one doing it in my city!

 

Coming back to the case:

1. Do you have dated receipts for the oil/filter you used when DIY oil changes were done. Sometimes it can be offered as a proof of change (a weak one, I admit).

2. Do we know the time interval it took for the loss of these many qt of oil? In other words, when oil level check was done before the failure?

[viceversa]

It may be Subaru's fault. But it's really your responsibility to make sure it's full of oil, regardless of what happened. Sad facts.

 

I have a truck where the engine was replaced because it was burning a lot of oil. Big block gas engine. I don't know if it actually blew up or not. You should have seen this coming and talked to Subaru _before_ the fact and with evidence. Now they can blame you. The fact that you had DIY oil changes aggravates the situation and gives them more ammunition.

 

But I am not telling you anything you don't already know. Sorry, everyone makes dumb mistakes. I once blew an engine because I screwed up the oil filter, couldn't remove it and drove a screwdriver through it. When all I could do was twist the casing and not still remove the filter, I decided at this point to take it to a shop a few miles away.

 

Now I know exactly how far a car will go without any oil in it whatsoever - 2 miles.

[suprmanlives]

I appreciate your honesty. The lack of perfection in my regular inspection of oil levels is why I've asked for suggestions, but do have them fixing the car. If I find other causes I'll address the issues but see the trao I got myself into.

It may be Subaru's fault. But it's really your responsibility to make sure it's full of oil, regardless of what happened. Sad facts.

 

I have a truck where the engine was replaced because it was burning a lot of oil. Big block gas engine. I don't know if it actually blew up or not. You should have seen this coming and talked to Subaru _before_ the fact and with evidence. Now they can blame you. The fact that you had DIY oil changes aggravates the situation and gives them more ammunition.

 

But I am not telling you anything you don't already know. Sorry, everyone makes dumb mistakes. I once blew an engine because I screwed up the oil filter, couldn't remove it and drove a screwdriver through it. When all I could do was twist the casing and not still remove the filter, I decided at this point to take it to a shop a few miles away.

 

Now I know exactly how far a car will go without any oil in it whatsoever - 2 miles.

[The Dude]

Supermnlives, from your posts you seem like a really nice guy, and I am truly sorry that this unfortunate event happened to you. But the most likely explanation for the loss of your engine oil is that it leaked out throught the oil drain.

Consider:

1. No leaks found on the exterior of the engine

2. No excessive smoke from the exhaust

3. No crush washer used during a D-I-F oil change

4. Did you use a torque wrench to tighten the drain plug?

 

4.5 qts of oil went somewhere. It didn't leak from a valve cover, and it almost certainly wasn't burnt in the engine, so where did it go?

 

Two more suggestions, and then I give up.

1. Pull the spark plugs and look for signs of oil being burnt in the cylinders.

2. Was the engine using excessive amounts of oil when the dealership was doing the oil changes? Usually an engine will GRADUALLY use more oil as it wears. For an engine to suddenly burn 4.5 qts of oil in 3,000 mile interval would require an engine component failure.

 

If you're still absolutely convinced that 4.5 qts of oil was burnt in the engine, go and hire a qualified expert mechanic to tear down your engine and document the component failure. Because I'm pretty sure that nothing less than unimpeacable expert testimony is going to get insurance company to pay off on this claim.

 

BTW, I almost had the same thing happen to me a number years ago. EXCEPT that the manufacturer handed me an offical D-I-Y mantainance manual that was supplied as part of buying the car. I changed the oil, carefully following the instructions in manual. The second day after changing the oil, I again checked the oil level and found it to be about two quarts low. I called the dealer and he said "Did you replace the crush washer?". I said "No, and you've got a problem Jack, because your OFFICAL manufactuer D-I-F manual didn't tell me to". Bottom line: the manufactuer admitted that they had omitted instructions on replacing the cruch washer in their manual. They gave me a letter extending my engine warranty to 100,000 miles. Almost the same situation as yours, except that Subaru didn't hand you an offical D-I-Y manual when they sold you the car.

[tcspeer]

I have not seen anyone mention valve stem seals, I dont know for a fact that Subaru engine are like the Chev. Malibu but I bought an engine rebuild for my malibu and the valve stem seals were not replaceled in the head. It started using oil at a very fast rate, with not a whole lot of noticely smoke. I just kept adding oil as needed until I had seals replaced. Did you check the spark plugs? Mine had a build up of crude on them from the oil getting in cyclinder.

[tcspeer]

Dude, I didnt mean to repeat your suggestion on plugs, I started my reply and was called away to phone when I got back to finish and post I seen you already suggested this.

[darrylw]

It's a good idea to look into valve stem seals. This is the one place where an engine can internally consume oil and not smoke a lot. This is because the oil is mixed in with the incoming air/fuel stream and burned efficiently. I've seen cars use 2 quarts per tank of fuel and not have much visible smoke.

 

As for the issues with engine temp and oil sensors: I wouldn't be pointing the finger at subaru. I've never seen a car with an oil level sensor or a temperature sensor for the oil. Has anybody else seen it on a non-subie?

 

Crush washers suck. They can split and cause all the oil to leak out. They should just use no washer at all. Engineers...

 

Darryl

[suprmanlives]

I've had 2 or 3 cars that gave signs. A olds delta 98 that ticked minus at a qt short and a cadi that gave a low oil level notification. Hey if it's something I need to know about subs ok, no one's perfect, but where's the logic

It's a good idea to look into valve stem seals. This is the one place where an engine can internally consume oil and not smoke a lot. This is because the oil is mixed in with the incoming air/fuel stream and burned efficiently. I've seen cars use 2 quarts per tank of fuel and not have much visible smoke.

 

As for the issues with engine temp and oil sensors: I wouldn't be pointing the finger at subaru. I've never seen a car with an oil level sensor or a temperature sensor for the oil. Has anybody else seen it on a non-subie?

 

Crush washers suck. They can split and cause all the oil to leak out. They should just use no washer at all. Engineers...

 

Darryl