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IT'S DONE! Swapped EJ22 for EJ25 in '97 Outback


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#1 kaltree

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 12:40 PM

Well, it's finally done.

For some who have been waiting for this, I apologize as I am lazy. :)

For the last year, I had been struggling with the EJ25 that came with my '97 Outback. I came to the conclusion that I too suffered the infamous head gasket failures. The engine had overheated so many times I honestly lost count. The EJ25 never overheated to the point of boil-over, but came very close. Since these engine have aluminum heads, there was a good chance the heads were either warped or cracked or possibly both.

I absulutely loved everything about the car, except the engine. Since I still owe on the vehicle, it was not a good choice to sell the car and hope to find a used car for less than the cost of a new engine. So, I came here looking for solutions. It came with high recommendation to contact an engine builder called "Colorado Component Rebuilders, Inc". Their website is http://www.ccrengines.com/. I worked specifically with Emily, who happens to know everything imaginable about Subaru engines. After talking with a local mechanic and setting up the project, I then saved pennies.

Went ahead and ordered a 1995 EJ22 with a 1995 Intake Manifold. CCR installed the manifold for me to save time later. They did a great job. It was a little difficult to locate this part, but being a custom job like this I didn't mind. Everything matched up perfectly except for the bracket to support the power steering lines. My mechanic made a custom bracket to support these lines. It took about 8 days or so for the mechanic to do the installation, but he did an excellent job. If you are reading this from the Boise, Idaho area - Ken at Oasis Auto is the man.

There were some issues getting things going. Turned out the 4 of the intake lifters did not want to pump up. After trying lots of things, we contacted Emily again at CCR, and the overnighted a new rocker-arm assembly complete with new lifters to fix the issue. Worked like a charm.

Now that the engine has a wopping 600 miles on it (as of 11/8/04) - I can give a little progress report. From a power standpoint, the EJ22 is just as good as the EJ25. The ONLY time I notice any difference in power is being on the freeway and flooring it. I'm still breaking in the engine, so I expect things to tighten up just a little. The engine is SO tight as it is. Runs so smooth and is SO quiet when comared to my old EJ25. The EJ25 had roughly 130k on it when it was retired.

I have some pictures of the before and after results. You can see those here: http://www.altreepho...aphy.net/subaru.

Feel free to post questions here. I'll be checking back as often as I can.

If you couldn't tell, I am VERY pleased with the results. No more overheating. Quiet engine. Runs great.

Big thanks to Emily at CCR for her patience and time, and to Ken at Oasis Auto in Boise. Great work guys!!


- Kevin Altree

#2 outback_97

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 12:47 PM

So... what did it cost ? Engine? Installation labor? I'm not sure what path I would take if my engine went bad... probably just headgasket replacement but I've considered doing what you've done with yours as another option.

Steve

#3 kaltree

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 12:55 PM

Engine was $2105.00 (including shipping)
Installation was $600.00 (including extra parts, fluids, etc)

Total: $2700.00

(and now has a 3 year warranty on the engine!!)


So... what did it cost ? Engine? Installation labor? I'm not sure what path I would take if my engine went bad... probably just headgasket replacement but I've considered doing what you've done with yours as another option.

Steve



#4 Sweet82

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 03:44 PM

What does a head gasket replacement typically cost? :confused:

#5 Setright

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 03:59 PM

Half that amount, if what we read here on the site is true. However, the EJ25 might just blow the HG again....!

#6 WAWalker

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 04:10 PM

8 days to install:confused: but labor was only $600?

The total cost is about right for replacing a 2.2L and about 1k cheeper that replacing the 2.5L. And now you have a reliable engine.

#7 kaltree

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 04:20 PM

That's true. A headgasket job tends to run around $1200. That's the low-end price, assuming the heads are in good shape. Being the heads are aluminum - they are prone to warp and crack. Each head costs around $600.

Total cost for heads and a gasket are around $2400. That comes with a 90-day warranty and the chance the gasket could blow again.

I opted for a more reliable solution with a good warranty.

Half that amount, if what we read here on the site is true. However, the EJ25 might just blow the HG again....!



#8 cookie

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 04:21 PM

This would give you the engine most of us would prefer with a three year warranty.

#9 subeman90

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 08:24 PM

what did you do for the computer? are you using the 2.2 computer or the 2.5 comp? wireing? details details details......

Matt

#10 lmdew

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 08:41 PM

No computer changes required.

I did the same in my 98 Outback, used 96 2.2 motor 50K miles $125
14 hours of work (one 12 pack of Fat Tire) $13
Fluids $25
Total $163 and it runs great.

CCR is Great, they were my next option, if I hadn't found this great used engine.

Nice Job!

#11 subeman90

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 08:44 PM

ok I've seen 2 refrences to a 96 motor...what about a 2.2 from a 92 legacy for example....will it work???

whats Fat Tire too???

Matt

#12 kaltree

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 10:08 PM

The existing computer (as far as I know) is a direct match with the 2.2L. Others who know this for sure - please chime in...


what did you do for the computer? are you using the 2.2 computer or the 2.5 comp? wireing? details details details......

Matt



#13 kaltree

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 10:11 PM

Sounds like you got a great deal. Can't beat that!! Sounds like a great deal on the Fat Tire too!

No computer changes required.

I did the same in my 98 Outback, used 96 2.2 motor 50K miles $125
14 hours of work (one 12 pack of Fat Tire) $13
Fluids $25
Total $163 and it runs great.

CCR is Great, they were my next option, if I hadn't found this great used engine.

Nice Job!



#14 kaltree

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 10:20 PM

Not sure. I went off the recommendation from CCR. If I remember right, the big issue is making sure the EGR system and exhaust match up. I'm sure there's lots more, but will have to yield to the experts on this site for more details.

Anybody know for sure if this will work?

Fat Tire is good beer... And after all the issues with the EJ25 - a beer sounds really good.


ok I've seen 2 refrences to a 96 motor...what about a 2.2 from a 92 legacy for example....will it work???

whats Fat Tire too???

Matt



#15 WAWalker

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 10:26 AM

You need a 1995 2.2L to do this. Reason being.....'95 2.2L had the EGR, and duel port exhaust. The '96 2.2L has single port exhaust. So to use a '96 you would have to replace at leat your Y-pipe. You can't use '90-94 2.2L because they didn't have EGR.

I don't know what the reason would have been for using a '96 intake manifold. I would think you could use the intake off whatever 2.5L you are replacing. If you use the intake and sensors off your old engine you shouldn't have any issues with fuel control, unless there was a problem before you started.

#16 ccrinc

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 10:31 AM

OK, guys. Here's some clarification for those who are asking.

I'm not saying you can't use any other year but '95, but it's the one with the least hassle:

Prior to '95 the EJ22 left head did not have an EGR port. ('93 and '94 did have a place to drill and tap however.) '95 EJ22 had an EGR as did years after that, BUT the exhaust ports went from dual to single in '96. The EJ25 exhaust system is dual port, so it won't match properly to a single port head.

Also, the wiring on the '95 intake manifold plugs into the EJ25 wiring harness with no modifications and no ECU changes.

It's a '95 EJ22 and a '95 intake manifold.

(I don't drink anything that has "Fat" in the name :drunk: )

And, remember guys, I learned dang near everything I know (about Subarus anyway ;) from Rick.

Emily
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#17 WAWalker

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 10:50 AM


Prior to '95 the EJ22 left head did not have an EGR port. ('93 and '94 did have a place to drill and tap however.)

Emily
http://www.ccrengines.com


You can't drill the '94 head, well you can, but..... Have been there done that, you drill into the water jacket. Don't know about the '93 head.

#18 kaltree

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 11:02 AM

Thanks for the clarification on the intake manifold Emily!

I updated the original post to reflect this as to not mislead anyone...

And as far as hassle factor goes, this '95 EJ22 was amazingly easy to install (from what I heard from my mechanic). I think the hardest part was taking the time to build the custom bracket, and getting to the bolts that connect to the transmission... All of which are very minor in my opinion.

- Kevin

Also, the wiring on the '95 intake manifold plugs into the EJ25 wiring harness with no modifications and no ECU changes.

It's a '95 EJ22 and a '95 intake manifold.

Emily
http://www.ccrengines.com



#19 anoblenate

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 05:38 PM

Thanks for the clarification on the intake manifold Emily!

I updated the original post to reflect this as to not mislead anyone...

And as far as hassle factor goes, this '95 EJ22 was amazingly easy to install (from what I heard from my mechanic). I think the hardest part was taking the time to build the custom bracket, and getting to the bolts that connect to the transmission... All of which are very minor in my opinion.

- Kevin


Thanks for the post. I'm going to follow suit, here. I plan on doing the work myself and this sounds the most hassle free way.

and by '95 EJ22, do you mean 95 and newer, or is specific to the 95 engine?

thanks a ton Kevin, and Emily.

-Nate

#20 kaltree

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 05:42 PM

I believe the engine was specific to '95.

Can anyone else verify this?


and by '95 EJ22, do you mean 95 and newer, or is specific to the 95 engine?



#21 anoblenate

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 06:14 PM

the exhaust ports went from dual to single in '96. The EJ25 exhaust system is dual port, so it won't match properly to a single port head.

Also, the wiring on the '95 intake manifold plugs into the EJ25 wiring harness with no modifications and no ECU changes.

It's a '95 EJ22 and a '95 intake manifold.

Emily
http://www.ccrengines.com

the answer is right there, i understand now.

thanks!

#22 kaltree

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 05:40 PM

Well, I thought I would drop a quick update.

It's been nearly a year now since the swap, and things have been great. The new EJ22 has roughly 15,000 miles on it. On a recent road trip, I recorded 29.6 MPG on the highway.

No issues that I can think of. I am told there may be a slight seepage of oil around the left-hand valve covers, but that is the only issue (and quite minor, in my opinion).

The engine is quiet, and plenty powerfull - granted the EJ25 may have had more power, but was not running at full potential with all the issues I had with it.

With gas prices where they are, I am glad I went with the EJ22.


Kevin

#23 nipper

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Posted 23 September 2005 - 08:06 PM

Way cool. I think i may have one of the few 2.5L that does not have an issue. The only thing i noticed from my 2.2L to the 2.5L is that it doesnt need to downshift as much around town to get going, so it gets a little better gas mialge around town. i havent done a good highway run yet, but have nioticed it has more power to climb hills.
Way cool on lisiting the prices, nice to see the numbers. You got a good price on labor. SOunds like about 35 hrs labor.
Good luck with it :)

Joe

#24 99obw

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Posted 24 September 2005 - 07:45 AM

One thing I can add is that when Pulloff and I searched locally for an EJ22 for his '99, the only engine we found with EGR was from an auto tranny car. The engine he purchased from a '95 manual tranny car didn't have EGR, and unfortunately the guy at the junkyard was a complete jerk about us returning it. He picked up the phone and called some "subaru expert" to confirm that the "swap is impossible". :rolleyes:

I talked Pulloff out of a CCR engine for his car. I'm sure they are good engines, I just thought it was silly to put an expensive engine in a car with almost 190k miles on it. I think he ended up putting just over $1k into the replacement project, but we did all seals, water pump, timing belt, belts, new wires, plugs, head gaskets, head bolts, new coil, thermostat, etc. The junkyard people around here are a__holes, they removed the throttle body and coil off of the engine we ended up using. I think the engine cost around $500, and had around 80k miles on it. With the work we did it should be good for the life of the car and then some.

#25 blitz

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Posted 24 September 2005 - 11:09 AM

From a power standpoint, the EJ22 is just as good as the EJ25. The ONLY time I notice any difference in power is being on the freeway and flooring it.

The torque-curve of the 2.2 is neck and neck with the 2.457 up to 3500 rpm. Above that, the 2.457 sorta "comes on the cam" and opens-up more.

The 2.5 also has that second power surge around 5250 and runs out to 5750, wheras the 2.2 power is flat in the upper range and pretty much falls off at 5250.

Runs so smooth and is SO quiet when comared to my old EJ25.

The 2.2 is an inspired design. The 2.457 is a bastardized version.




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