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ummm worst case senario


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14 replies to this topic

#1 electryc_monk

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Posted 25 December 2004 - 01:43 AM

Okay given the history of this car... For the last 7+ months she's been running about one tank of gas every 2-3 weeks... usually in one day as its a 1.75 to 2.25hr drive to Grand Rapids, From Beaverton. And for the last 2+ months in dire need of and finally got the clutch swap. Well, due to time constaints the ignition seemed to get slightly outta wack when the tranny was reinstalled with the new clutch setup (XT6 kit).. and she ran kinda rough down to Grand Rapids... I took the manuals with me to parooose while out for the following weeks and would drop them with CrazyMike(elsewhere) ermm, Okami (ID here) so He (his family)and Calebz(when time permits) and me(when next i get to Tejas) can help with the strip-age of the XT6 in storage.... well i thought i had it figured out that it was out of timing..well.. driving it to the house in Beaverton, i had a wired "pop" noise happen... and well, I am sorry to have to admit but, i can quite be ceretain if it was a pop sound or not but, now it has a *VERY* mechanical(metallic) backfire/backpressure sound that screams from the intake on excelleration. SO... I'm gonna list the possibles I'm thinking about at this point given that today i finally felt enough energy had returned from the truck-driving/carbon monoxide excitement i've had recently.

The engine idles now beautifully and the timing its set at approx. 15-18 Degrees BTDC ...well its the scratch marks i remember seeing from the last heavy engine work down over 1.5 years ago on this car.

Worst case: broke a valve/ swallowed a valve
next level: cam not seating valve anymore/ weak spring
next level: cam wheel skipped a tooth on one head
next level: timing still not correct
next level: i'm loosing my remaining marbles.
next level: 6th level of Dante's inferno

So i know this sound is actually acousitcally eminating from the pass. side head area, that tells me its cyl #1 which is at the front(closest to the front bumper) of the block right?

okay now i think i'll turn in and get some shut eye.... merry xmas folks and what a beautiful -10F. clear night out it is currently hope yours will be a beautiful 25th morning and remainder of the weekend too.

#2 WJM

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Posted 25 December 2004 - 08:51 AM

Burned valve......?

Check compression.

#3 TomRhere

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Posted 25 December 2004 - 08:07 PM

Remember a friends Chevy doing something simular to yours. Idle somewhat smooth, but backfired, (thru intake), under acceleration, even in neutral. Tore into it and found an exhaust valve wasn't opening, due to rounded cam lobe.

Not saying you've rounded a cam lobe, but it could be you have a cam follower that broke, or fell out somehow.

T-belt could be off-time too. My '82 spit and sputtered like crazy when I 1st did the T-belts on it, popped out of the intake and exhaust. Idled okay, but didn't want to rev any. Had them out of time, due to no flywheel marks to set them to, went with best guess, WRONG!!! Did finally get it right though.....

If you have a somewhat good idle, I wouldn't think a stuck, broken, burnt valve here, as you would have a miss on that cylinder, even at idle.

Think I'd pull the cam cover and have a look-see in there.

#4 MilesFox

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Posted 25 December 2004 - 11:14 PM

i think the possibility of a dropped valve seat is most likely.

they can wedge a valve open and still manege to seal. open enough the cam does nothing

#5 electryc_monk

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 02:08 PM

Compression check technically 1/2 done but, found the trouble maker!

(going from memory here as my manual is in texas at the moment) :>)

[pass r] || [drv r]
[pass f] || [drv f]

pass r (cyl 3?) = approx 5? PSI (needle actually attempted to move)
Pass f (cyl 1?) = approx 100 PSI (needle traveled least to the 100 marker)

dr side haven't done yet, i may go back outside to pop the vavle cover and test the drivers side in a few minutes.

So to possible the list from y'all and what i was talking with the family and friends about yesterday plus....
burnt valve
broken spring
lifter collapsed
rounded cam lobe
valve seat fell in

All of these can be checked from just removing the valvecover.
thankfully i remember the rubber gasket is compressible to a 4.4-6.7? PSI tork spec. so its just a matter of:
move air cleaner out of the way
deal with the dripping melting snow sludge stuff
work around the PS lines, Turbo oil, and coolant lines

yeah i just made it look more opressive then it really is.. i'm just thinking err typing 'aloud' here. :D

So if it is one of the above then the cam tower will need to be removed to fix if its mearly a "out of adjustment or a retaining clip on a valvespring or something like that?

Other wise it'll be a head removal and then it'll be a fix the valve... *IF* this is the worst case situation then..... i'm glad i have a few things in storage then huh? :rolleyes:

{Items in storage awaiting proper time to install: starion IC, Ag HG, EGT gauge, oil cooler(needs the adapter to the block though), and invest in the header???} looks like those Pug's will wait a little longer eh Calebz and Okami (and clan)???:rolleyes:

#6 electryc_monk

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 07:17 PM

Compression check [edit] done!

(going from memory here as my manual is in texas at the moment) :>)

[pass r] || [drv r]
[pass f] || [drv f]

pass r (cyl 3?) = approx 5? PSI (needle actually attempted to move)
Pass f (cyl 1?) = approx 100+ PSI (needle spiked over the 100 marker)

drive r (cyl 4?) = approx 100 PSI (needle barely appeared to go over 100)
drive f (cyl 2?) = approx 100+ PSI (needle mimic'd the #1? cyl)

So the possible list from above post just got smaller. The lift kit significantly easied my frustration. so it was just a matter of:
[X] move air cleaner out of the way
[X] deal with the dripping melting snow sludge stuff
[X] work around the PS lines, Turbo oil, and coolant lines

and {Pop!!!} the valve cover came off smoothly with one oddity wanting to leap at me..... the rear most rocker arm laying in the bottom of the valvecover area.
At first glance my brain when "HUH???" because the valvestem, retaining clip, and valve spring "looked" to be the same height as the intake next to it...as the intake did not appear to be touching the cam lobe. So can anyone say, think, shoot in the dark, guess-timate, know for certain, insert wisdom here, what may have caused this?

Given the previous posts I'm inclinded to think my eye's misjudged the spring height and position so that it would be a sleeve that "colapsed" or is it more correct to say "swallowed a valve seat" like Milesfox suggested?????????

well that's all for now. :confused:

#7 grossgary

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 07:42 PM

passengers side is super easy to do, so i'd just fix it and see what happens. visually inspect your cam lobe and see if it's eaten up or worn down. compare it to another cam if you have one available or compare the lobe to the other lobes. if you can't tell anything, take it to a machine shop and have them mic it and see if it's true. or.....just get another cam, can't be that hard to find one for a couple dollars. get another rocker arm as well.

check the HLA, could that have collapsed or failed in some way? see if you can depress it by hand.

#8 electryc_monk

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 07:54 PM

passengers side is super easy to do, so i'd just fix it and see what happens. visually inspect your cam lobe and see if it's eaten up or worn down. compare it to another cam if you have one available or compare the lobe to the other lobes. if you can't tell anything, take it to a machine shop and have them mic it and see if it's true. or.....just get another cam, can't be that hard to find one for a couple dollars. get another rocker arm as well.

check the HLA, could that have collapsed or failed in some way? see if you can depress it by hand.


i admit the first thought was, "i wonder what would happen if i just try to stick this back up in there....." and the rocker arm was still "in one piece" i didn't see anything "cracked or missing".

As for comparison... looks like I'd have to loosen/remove the cam tensioner pully/ cam cover so that the cam can be stuck back in place...right? [ of course marking the pully and teeth for exact reindexing to reduce the headache..

use moly-b to hold the rocker back in place and all that...

but seriously that's getting ahead of the game here... would you mind refreshing my memory, I can't figure out -for the life of me- what the HLA is? Hydralic Lift actuator?

#9 TomRhere

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 08:30 PM

HLA = Hydraulic Lash Adjuster.

Could be Cam-Follower fell out due to following possibilities;

Collasped lifter, allowing to much free play in there, gravity took affect.

There's varnish, or other "stuff" on valve stem, causing it to be somewhat sticky. Valve hung open, just a bit to long, allowing C-F to fall out.

Valve Float, due an "over-rev" situation.

Weak/broken valve spring. But I'm not thinking that myself.

Couple other things that just don't want to come into focus at the moment..

I do know the Ford 2.0, 2.3L, (upright in-line 4 cyl) engines had problems with their C-F's falling out for a couple of years. Yeah, it's a PITA problem, but it's an easy repair. Well, maybe not so easy on a Subaru engine that's still in the vehicle, but still.

Just put it back in. May out-last vehicle, may fall out again next week. Give the engine the MMO treatment, along with a flush/re-fill of oil. See what happens.

Just my .02...................

#10 electryc_monk

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 07:33 PM

HLA = Hydraulic Lash Adjuster.

Ahhhhhh okay so that's the cylidrical metal unit that has a "ball hitch" looking top to it....

Could be Cam-Follower fell out due to following possibilities;
[clip]
Valve Float, due an "over-rev" situation.


that's the odd thing, i was letting it warm up slowly as it had't been driven in like nearly 4 weeks, so i was being very calm and letting it warm up...it didn't even get above 3500 rpms at the time it made the now obvious pop that allowed the C-F to fall out.

[clip]......... Yeah, it's a PITA problem, but it's an easy repair. Well, maybe not so easy on a Subaru engine that's still in the vehicle, but still.

Just put it back in. May out-last vehicle, may fall out again next week. Give the engine the MMO treatment, along with a flush/re-fill of oil. See what happens.
Just my .02...................


Well i did as suggested.... remembering a physics buddy stunt from a few years back when he had to put some new lower ball joints in his late 80's buick regal... he got a can full of liquid Nitrogen and poured it on the old ball joints base and then tapped softly with the hammer, and "boink!" out popped the rusty ole ball joint... cooled it off so much it shrank enough to allow it to be dislodged even with the gummed up rusty surroundings holding it at bay.

/tangent this is what allowed me to think... okay it was -6F last night so the metal C-F sitting on the floor(in the clean rag) will be nice and smaller now... maybe the cold engine will also give enough room?
-nope... so i put the cover back on... started up the engine and brought it gently to a near operating temp.... let the oil drain back down... popped the cover back off, jacked the car up a bit more.... found a couple "L" shaped screwdrivers and went to work.

found one to brace against the cam rough area and push down on the spring's cap... the very cold C-F went on further just after a couple hours of cold testing...well now it took a little more finesce and (Snap) it was back in place......

(valley gril accent)"Like..ohmygawd, it in!"

hand cranked the flywheel around slowly with the huge screwdriver on the teeth and watched the lobe and C-F work.... sure enough... it stayed put....

buttoned it back up and started it... let it idle up to normal temp and then a few more minutes to make sure all metal was equal temp. and then slowly bliped it to 2500... fine...then 3100....still fine...cool....then just over 4000 and its still fine... "Cool"

so now i'll try her on the road tomorrow when there is sun light....
brother and sis in law are here so .... thank ya'll and i'm gonna go socialize with the family... good night.

#11 WJM

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 07:37 PM

Cliff notes: you broke a cam follower....?

#12 electryc_monk

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 07:42 PM

no it was in fine shape... it just "popped out".....

wierd huh?

#13 WJM

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Posted 27 December 2004 - 07:48 PM

strange.

#14 electryc_monk

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 05:48 PM

well i got the car back from the shop. and it was running a bit rough.

GUESS What......Yess-sirreee bob.

Went to take Larry(step Dad) out for a ride to make sure my brain was thinking the same possibilties with regard to the "Feeling" of a miss, or clogged fuel injector or maybe the timing wasn't "just quite right"....

Well, mildly got on it leaving the driveway... and *POP*! sure enough that HLA/Rocker Arm. Just did its thing again.

So I guess tomorrow AM I'll start her up to warm it all up(and the garage).
Then take the valve cover off and put it back in. However I dare think that the previous advice of using MMO is now a necessity before i yank the engine out entirely and do a head swap.

Because if this rocker arm is popping out in the cold weather then....... something is seriously needing overhaul or at the least a HLA needs taking apart and cleaning and reinstalling... which means that I'll need to at least take the cam tower off to do this.

Now am I babbling too much? IS this sound judgement talking here?
Man I sure do miss being in Texas and in college... I could just throw her up on stands and even in this time of the year put on a coverall and long pants and I'd be set... but tonight forcast means another night of subzero temps.....

BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. not fun...really, not fun. but hey. its a part of life and a solid character building experience eh?

#15 electryc_monk

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 03:07 PM

looks like its definately time to plan a rebuild now. If I'm gonna have to take the head off and put a new one on due to the :

valve assm. or HLA not holding the rocker arm in place long enough as it popped right back out again when i got it to start. I guess I'll be planning a spring time removal and rebuild of the engine.

Est cost (not including my labor):
set of heads (got them still in the bags)
$80 gasket set(Approx?)
Spider intake (got it in Tx stored currently)
IC from starion (in tx and one tube left to be welded for it to be installed too)
$45 shop supplies (this and that)


When to do it after the spring thaw... :banghead: And now for the silver wagon to sleep a long nap till springtime for me to do a proper rebuild on her along with other accessories that have been long in planning and funds will be fully ready for it... time well spent - then....(sigh) well its dinner time. On to other topics...




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