34 replies to this topic

[pinksoda3]

I'm looking forward to finally being able to go snowboarding this season (sad snow season in Seattle/Snoqualmie area this year)! In previous years I wasn't the one with car but this year I am; unfortunately I have no experience driving in snowy/icy conditions. I've always heard that Subarus are great in the snow, and my '88 wagon is in terrific shape (four wheel drive, manual transmission), but it also seems awfully light (my other car is a '76 Plymouth Scamp and the weight difference between the two is phenomenal!).... Any tips for driving in snowy/icy conditions?
Also, some of the trips will be further away and in snowier places than Snoqualmie; I'm wondering if I should invest in snow tires or chains. Not knowing a thing about either of them I'm curious:
Snow tires vs. chains - which are better?
There are rules about driving on city roads in snow tires, aren't there? What are they?
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Vanislru]

snow/ice tires are money well spent, chains are a must if you want to get out of the parking lot after a big dump of snow.

[northguy]

Wow! The learning curve for you is going to be high. Chains/ snow tires - get both. That way when you get stuck you can chain up and get out. Get a couple of 50# bags of sand for the back end, put it in 4wd and go like hell. Jam the brakes really hard at all stops and slide head first into whatever is in front of you. Whatever you do, don't take your foot off the pedal once you start sliding as you don't want to regain control or the ability to steer. If the back end starts to come around, don't steer into it; that will counter the slide. Instead steer away from it and floor it. That will spin you completely out of control. Don't pack a shovel either. You want to be as helpless as possible. Of course, don't follw any of the recommendations I have made as they are all hopelessly wrong. Good luck. (except about getting bith chains and snow tires, and the sand)

[ballitch]

that is some good-backwards advice man.

[hooziewhatsit]

one of the better things you could do is try to find a snowy parking lot and just play around in it. Loose control on purpose, then try to get it back. See what happens when you hit the brakes hard going straight, etc.

If a cop asks what you're doing, just say you're learning how to drive in the snow :-) (I haven't tried that one yet, it might work)

Have fun :-)

[diluded000]

I'm looking forward to finally being able to go snowboarding this season (sad snow season in Seattle/Snoqualmie area this year)! In previous years I wasn't the one with car but this year I am; unfortunately I have no experience driving in snowy/icy conditions. I've always heard that Subarus are great in the snow, and my '88 wagon is in terrific shape (four wheel drive, manual transmission), but it also seems awfully light (my other car is a '76 Plymouth Scamp and the weight difference between the two is phenomenal!).... Any tips for driving in snowy/icy conditions?
Also, some of the trips will be further away and in snowier places than Snoqualmie; I'm wondering if I should invest in snow tires or chains. Not knowing a thing about either of them I'm curious:
Snow tires vs. chains - which are better?
There are rules about driving on city roads in snow tires, aren't there? What are they?
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Being a native Floridian I'm not exactally an expert on the subject, but I put about 100 miles on the 85 DL on snow and ice in the last two days so my experience is fairly fresh, and I have driven in snow off and on since 1980something. I have run M+S all season tires on a 2WD - which are almost useless, 13" snow logo'd snow tires on the 4WD Subaru - which are OK, and 15" studded snows on my now lifted 4WD Subaru (and the 2WD before that). Never tried chains, but they seems like a finger freezing proposition. The deal with real snow tires is they are softer at low temperature and have a tread designed to fling snow out of it. Some other folks might have good advice about sidewall tread and other things I don't really know much about. Studded snow tires really help stop on ice, but don't do much in deep snow. Studded snow tires are legal year round here in Colorado, but I don't know about where you are at. If you can afford some sort of snow tires (which I think wear out faster) I would invest in some, particularly if you are driving in mountains.

That sort of raises the point about types of conditions. There are all kind of frozen conditions: thin ice on asphalt, thick ice on ashpalt, re-frozen bumpy ice, snow plowed down to thin ice, snow pack, iced over snow pack, plowed snow pack, deep snow . . . . you get the idea. The best advice I ever got is 'you just gotta be cool' and to go find a frozen parking lot and get a feel for how the car handles when you loose traction. I found my Subaru wagon spins around pretty easy, so watch making sudden wheel jerks, or braking on curves. The rump roast end wants to catch up if you brake too long, so I have had to brake-slide-correct brake-slide-correct multiple times to get stopped fast on ice. Taking your foot off the brake when you really want to stop is hard for me to do, but it works. Some sandbags in the trunk might help with this, but I didn't want the mess. For different conditions I will sometimes make a fast test stop (if nobody is around) to get a feel for how fast I can go, just watch for changing conditions.

Have fun snowboarding.

- James B

[Skip]

On a bit more forward level.

If you choose to change tires you must change all four to the same
style/size.

Good snow tires in 13" are a hen's tooth in some regions.
A good mud and snow will do in most situations.

Chains, never needed them - listen to those who have.

Driving in the snow is all about control of the situation.

These cars have a nasty habit of inducing so much
confidence we don't realize we are out of control until.

Remember to steer - the front wheels must be turning.
Use the brakes gently pumping when needed.

Down shift early and leave the engine and the four wheels slow the vehicle.

Like Hoozie says, find an empty snow covered parking lot and have some learning fun.


Like I like to say:

You can lie to Mother Nature
BUT
You can't fool Father Physics

[thealleyboy]

I would highly recommend a set of snows. Don't be chinzty here - you get what you pay for when buying new tires. Chains are overkill in my opinion. You may want a taller tire for better clearance in deep snow, for example 175/80/13's or 185/80/13's.

Weight distribution is very good up front with the horizontally opposed motor. The rear is fair, and can be inproved with extra weight. Bagged gravel is cheaper than sand, and can be used in deep ruts. Don't let the light weight of the car fool you. It will do excellent in the snow if you equip it as described above.

As far as driving, I would use the 4wd sparingly until you get a good feel for the difference in handling. Remember, not all conditions require 4wd, and 2wd does well in snow too. I always find a big open parking lot when it first snows every year, and run it hard to get a feel for the "limits" of my Subie. You may want to get in the habit of doing this too.

good luck, John

[torxxx]

by some hanook, bridgestone blizzaks are nokian tires

They are all good winter tires. The driver on snow and ice, is what makes the difference. If you dont know how to put your car into a skid at 55mph and get out of it, you shouldnt be winter driving plain and simple.

With Soobies you need to Power into a skid. DO NOT USE the brakes, except for a little tap to get the rear end of the car going the other direction.

As for the laws with snow tires, they are usually allow seasonal. Like in alaska you can run studs from Sept 15 to April 15th.

If you do get chains, ONLY use them when you have to. The wreak havoc on everything around the tire. I've snapped brake lines running chains thats why I dont use them.

The whole weight in the back thing is kinda minimal. The only thing in the back of my car is a tow chain and a tool box.

The biggest thing is getting use to your car on ice. Go find some and practice.

[gbianchi]

just 2 cents here, leave the brakes alone on slick stuff as much as possible, look ahead and use the gears to slow down. non turning wheels are like sleds without steering, they can't change your direction. Parking lot practice is great advice, I beleive they are private property so the police shoudn't bug ya
Have fun with it!!

[BlueTrain]

you need to go practice somewhere with ice and snow before you start driving on mountain passes. get used to your car sliding around. good luck and take it slow.

[Snowman]

Good advice so far (listen to us guys from Alaska, we know a little about snow.)

Tires: NARROW NARROW NARROW! Get a set of good quality 175/80R13's. They are slightly taller for more clearance and narrower, which is what really matters. Wide tires have NO traction on ice. Floatation is bad for driving on roads in winter as you want to dig down to more solid stuff. Definitely get studs, and buy a set of cable chains to keep in the car. I have yet to use my chains, but I know they are there if I need them. You probably won't need chains, as a subaru with good winter tires can go through more snow than most vehicles on the road. I got stuck once and the "rescue vehicle", a chevy pickup, couldn't get within a couple hundred feet of me.

Driving: Go practice in a parking lot. Make sure you can pull your car out of a slide at highway speed. These cars are incredibly stable in 4wd and if you know what you're doing it's easy to control them. If you get into a slide, get off the brakes except for very gentle application, otherwise you can't steer. A car travelling at 50 that can steer is more in control than a car travelling at 20 that can't steer. Often, gentle throttle application is the best course of action as it will pull the car back into a straight line. Like has been said, it's also easy to get over-confident. The best piece of advice I can give as far as driving through deep snow is that momentum is your best friend. If you keep moving, a subaru will do some amazing things in snow. Once you stop, you'd better hope you've got a good shovel.

Stuff to have with you: As mentioned before, get a set of cheap cable chains. Carry a good-sized, sturdy snow shovel. Road flares and other safety equipment would probably be a good idea for where you are going. Get a tow strap or two for sure (travel with other vehicles if at all possible). Carry survival gear because you never know what's going to happen.

Vehicular checks: All fluids including gear oil. Put some de-icer fluid in your window washer reservoirs. Make sure you've got good wiper blades. Carry a bottle of fuel line de-icer. What kind of shape are the timing belts and fan belts in?


The most important thing you can do is learn to drive in the snow, which can really only be learned by experience. What I have listed above is sufficient for travelling across Alaska and Canada in the middle of winter. If you follow the advice contained in this thread, you should be fine. Just remember to be extra careful.

[pinksoda3]

Thanks to everyone, I appreciate all of the useful information!

[All_talk]

Most of whets been said here is good. I have been driving in the snow and mountains of Washington my whole life, learned to drive in the Cle Elum/Roslyn area and have been commuting over Snoqualmie Pass daily for the last 10 years. I will give you my thoughts on winter driving in order of importance.

1. SLOW DOWN, I can not emphasize this enough, not only will you need more time to react, but the car will require more room and time to maneuver, its pure physics. And just because the lane you are in is clear don’t overdrive, you never know when you may be forced into a sudden lane change or the conditions in you lane will change. If the plow driver lifts his blade or hits the turnaround you can go from bare and dry to 10" of slop in less than a second. Drive at a pace that feel comfortable to you, if you feel tense you are still going to fast, if others are passing you its probably not because they are super snow drivers, they’re probably just stupid (unless it me :-p ).

2. SNOW TIRES, while not an absolute necessity they are the best equipment advantage you can get, better that 4WD, locking diffs and all the other gadgets combined. Not to say 4WD doesn’t help, in fact a Subaru with a good set of tires is about at good as in gets, both of mine (wagon and RX) are far superior to my 4WD Suburban. The Nokans and Blizzaks are very good, but for a moderate cost you can get a set of Cooper Weathermaster S/T2s, I’ve been running them for the last two years on 4WD Subarus and highly recommend them. I run studless, conditions around here rarely warrant studs and with all the dry/wet running you will do they will be worn flat in less than a season anyway. Like others have said, thinner is better, for the EA Subes I would go with the 165/80R13. On Snoqualmie the conditions are often clear/wet wheel tracks with heavy furrows of snow/slush between, the penetration provided by the thin tires makes lane changes much more stable. When changing lanes in these conditions, try to always do it power on, power adds stability to FWD/AWD cars. In fact, try to leave room around you to add throttle in all winter conditions, this can be tough going down hill, so doubble up on rule #1.

3. SMOOTH CONTROL INPUTS, throttle, brakes and steering should all be smooth and controlled, if you are paying attention to the road there should be no need for violent maneuvers. Get to know how the car reacts to small inputs, this is where the snow covered parking lot is of use, but be productive, learn what it takes to start a slide and recovery from it, don’t just spin donuts (well you can do a few, they are fun ).

4. DON'T BE A LEMMING, going with the flow or the pack is not a smart move. Keep room around yourself, you’re going to need space to correct your mistakes or maneuver around other's. If this means you need to slow up and let others pass, so be it, if you need to pass, pick a good place to do it and move on away from other cars. If the wheel tracks look glazed over, move to one side where you tires are running in better traction. Thick, wet and sloppy slush and snow is the WORST (well except for 4" of little round sleet BBs... that was a very long drive to work), many times there is better traction in lanes further left where the snow is dryer. Visualize the contact between the tire and the surface and think about what you are saking the car to do. And if you are not sure about how much traction is available assume the worst, if you have room around you slow down a bit and do a brake check, progressively apply the brake tell you hear/feel a wheel start to slide, but be ready, it may happen sooner than you think. I often do this at the top of a hill to get a sense of the safe down-grade speed. Oh, and did I mention turn the radio off and listen to the road, you will learn difference between "looks dark cause its wet" and "looks dark cause its ice". Listen for water spray and look for it on the tires of other cars.

And note on adding weight, it can be a big help, my wagon seems to need it more than the RX, it would get a little tail happy going down hill with the brakes on. You should try for a couple of hundred pounds and place it as far back as you can, this will add pound of pound plus transfer some weight from the front, you get a better balance without adding more total weight. For me I addition to all my snow cloths (don’t forget the wool socks), tool box, spare (snow) tire, water, shovel and other road supplies, my ballast of choice is a big long heavy tow chain (about 85lb+) placed in bottom of the recessed cargo cubby.

Sorry for the length, I will probably think of more but I’m out of time right now…

Gary

[Mike W]

Much wisdom there! Definitely sounds like a guy who's driven Snoq. alot.
One thing I'd like to add, is to go up the hill insanely EARLY at all cost. I mean like 6am or so. That's when the hardcores head up and you'll be less likely to get hit by some out of control nutcase. No matter how painfull it is getting up early it's still better than sitting in a traffic mess or wreck. And when you get to the mountain you'll have and easy time parking, plenty of time to hang out in lodge swilling espresso, get the first chair up the hill and make the first tracks in all that powder (yeah right.)
About playing in parking lots. Do it every year to refresh your skills. Just watch out for those buried curbs. I'm sure no one here has ever encountered snow covered curbs right?

Bring a camera or video cam to document all the carnage you'll see on the road.

[beauregaardhooligan]

The most dangerous thing about driving on snow/ice is other drivers.
Don't assume they are going to stop just because you have the green light.
Pretend you have no brakes when driving on snow/ice. Don't go faster than you can coast to a stop.
If you must use the brakes, pump them.
I 2nd the *practice in a parking lot* notion. Make it slide by using the brakes to see how that works, then make it slide by using the gas. Try it in 2wd and 4wd. They both react differently.
If you do get stuck, gently applying the brake, foot or hand, can stop the spinning wheel and send power to the other.
Gently rocking between reverse and 1st will often help get you moving, but don't slam it. That'll just tear things up.
Don't try to turn when you're stuck. Go straight forward or backward.
Once you get moving even a little, 2nd gear will often pull better than 1st. 2nd gear won't let the wheel spin so bad if/when it loses traction
Fireplace ashes are great for traction.
Carry a tow strap, just in case you need it.
More than likely, you'll use it to pull someone else out, though.
Wait till you see the look on their faces!

[n16ht5]

I am a ski instructor person at stevens, so I go up every weekend of the season and on weeknights . I have been almost hit by about 3 people.. very scary. make very SMOOTH slow movements on the icy snowy stuff. I use as wide of tires and as big as possible in the snow (I 4wheel on weekends in the snow) but it depends on what you are driving on I guess.. I am coming from experience in the 4ft deep drifts that go over my truck's hood . and also, the clearish=black parts of the road that are shiny whereas eveyrhting else is white, are usually ice parts. not dry pavement.. and look out for people that have just chained up and are merging.. they don't like to look for oncoming cars..

for experience, go to parking lots etc.. when i wanted to get good, I tried to keep the car going straight while spinning all the tires with the gas (its fun too), and things like that, such as doughnuts and powerslides .


also, dont try this stuff when you are on the main road and there are kids on sleds ... and other cars, and snowmachines.. .. hehehe..

watch out for speed bumps too.

oh. and if you are going to crash, try to line up the car with the best possible colision course .. ive been there.. well close





my truggy :-p.





hopefully mine tomorrow!!!!!!

[edrach]

If you have 4WD capabilities with your car, you are not required to mount the chains in the passes even when they are required. But you are required to have them in the car if you get stuck and need them (funny how Washington state law is in this regard). I'm not a fan of studded tires since most of your time will be spent in the Seattle area where studs just eat up the road, are noisy, and actually hurt your stopping distant on dry or wet pavement. I am a great fan of Nokian (Hakkipollitta) studless tires; either the true winter version or the all season version; local Tire Factory chain will carry them....I found the best local price for them is the Kirkland store on 85th. Even in the mountains the Hakkis are excellent and I've never found I needed studs. Good luck finding what's best for you.

I'm looking forward to finally being able to go snowboarding this season (sad snow season in Seattle/Snoqualmie area this year)! In previous years I wasn't the one with car but this year I am; unfortunately I have no experience driving in snowy/icy conditions. I've always heard that Subarus are great in the snow, and my '88 wagon is in terrific shape (four wheel drive, manual transmission), but it also seems awfully light (my other car is a '76 Plymouth Scamp and the weight difference between the two is phenomenal!).... Any tips for driving in snowy/icy conditions?
Also, some of the trips will be further away and in snowier places than Snoqualmie; I'm wondering if I should invest in snow tires or chains. Not knowing a thing about either of them I'm curious:
Snow tires vs. chains - which are better?
There are rules about driving on city roads in snow tires, aren't there? What are they?
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

[edrach]

Two comments now that I've read the entire set of posts.

Snowman is correct, if you get a true winter snowtire, NARROW is the way to go. An oversize, wide tire won't help you on snow or ice and will actually hinder you in deeper snow. Look at some of the WRC rally pix for the winter rallies...their tires are positively skinny!

Secondly, everyone has theories about how to correct for a skid....steer opposite the rear, steer into the skid....I've always found that advice confusing and if you need to think about, too late. The best advice I've heard is the easiest to remember and the most workable....no matter what your rear end is doing, steer the car where you want to go. Unless you've overcooked it and are about to spin, steer where you want to go and it will go there.

[KStretch55]

If they're legal in your area get studs. They're kind of noisy, but if you drive on ice a lot they are awesome. When you wish you had them, it's too late.

[$ubaroo]

4 x 4 or not, your only as good as yer tires, i have a set of studded snowies on rims already so when the snow hits, i just swap my 4 summers on rims for my studded snowies on rims.. couldn't be easier, then i'm ready to hit the mountain..

Good Luck

[nvexplorer]

This past winter was one of the wettest in years for Nevada. Thanks to my uncle I was fortunate enough to have a 4WD Loyale Wagon before the snow burried everything. Subarus do phenominal in the snow. I was running around with two practically bald tires in the back and two decent all weathers in the front. As long as I was driving on something slippery the 4wd didn't complain about corners, but had to take it easy around corners. Powersliding is extremely easy when the tires in back are slightly smaller with less tread than the front. Great times. Never got stuck. Even was driving through snow past the bumper on my way home from work one night. Use the engine to slow you down on ice. Keeps the wheels from locking up and you know the rest. Great cars.

[n16ht5]

the great wide vs.. narrow..

for what I do, wider is better. When I think of snow, I am driving through deep snow where I need to float to keep the frame above the snow to keep moving. I have experience wheeling, where I, having the wider tires make it much further than more built wheeling rigs that have taller, skinnier tires
*32x11.5 and when I had 33x12.5 compared to 34x10.5 on rigs that weigh about the same *4000lbs. i weighed it at a truck stop lol. my baldish 32inch all terrains got me much further, because I floated on top of the snow more and kept my hood above the snowline . my friends rig with the 34's dug down and he pushed all the snow, and went too deep and got stuck, even though he has front and rear lockers. I just have a welded rear.


but on Ice, having skinnyish tires is a good thing it seems, because of the greater contact force, whereas pavement and grippy surfaces work differently. etc...

for example: my skiboards go slower than my 192cm skis, because they are smaller on the compact snow/ice, and have greater contact force on the slick stuff. this is my personal experience atleast, I could be wrong on the skinny tire part?




however< I don't know if you can really get a wide enough tire to fit in the subs to make much of a difference in the deep stuff. I would just go for the tallest tires you can fit at around the stock width. my 2 cents.

[n16ht5]

my dream wheeling rig

[n16ht5]

in reykjavik, iceland