Flowmastered87GL Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Update on page 3 As most of you know 82 brats (even though they are 4WD) came with the tiny "front wheel drive" style clutch. My 82 brat had this and I tried changing it to the later 4WD style. What I did is use the 82 TO bearing and carrier and the 83+ flywheel, disk and pressure plate. Well the clutch was slipping like mad. I have since pulled the engine and the clutch shows NO WEAR. Hell there are even still little rust specs on the flywheel. I had a theory so I put it into practice. The theory is that the newer clutch is a thicker unit (so therefore uses a thinner carrier on the TO bearing) I tried putting the pressure plate onto the tranny, no prob, could feel it touching the TO bearing. so I plopped on the disk to the shaft on the tranny, it touches but almost comes to the front of the pilot shaft. Wow and the clutch fork is all the way back too! I tried it with the disk and plate bolted onto the flywheel and the pilot shaft still only came 50% of the way through the pilot bearing. Yes something is definitely keeping it from going on. So, my hypothesis is: I had trouble mating the engine to the tranny when I first installed it... because... the carrier is too thick and the clutch was fighting me. Basically I had to push the engine back so hard so as to disengage the clutch to bolt the engine together. I will now install an 82 FWD style clutch to try to prove my theory. What I intend to prove: The only ways to make this system work are with a full 82 setup, OR with an 83+ carrier re-machined (or shimmed) to fit the shaft on an 82 tranny. We shall see how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 I have the set up you describe in my 83 ea81t. Im using an 81 gearbox (originally 8" clutch), throwout, and carrier with a 9" clutch plate, disk and flywheel. Mine seems to work fine........ Are you sure the flywheel & pressure plate are in good condition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted January 27, 2005 Author Share Posted January 27, 2005 The flywheel... not sure... the pressure plate and clutch disk are brand spanking new. The clutch has been slipping, but has NO WEAR on the disk or any of its mating surfaces So I figure its getting disengaged by the TO bearing. Also when I assemble the clutch inside the flywheel (off the engine) the unit feels very sturdy and capable of transfering power... so something must be making it release when its stuck into the car. I guess if I really got daring I could take off the TO bearing and pop the clutch back on the engine and stick it in there and see what happened. May be scary to try to start a car with no way of releasing the clutch engagement though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svengouli7 Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 I am 2 steps begind you Flow. I had just read your earlier posts on this as I have my 82 brat apart- and am trying to fit the full size clutch disk etc in. I thought McBrat had done this alright? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbrat Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 I thought McBrat had done this alright? nope. when I looked into doing it, the clutch guy and I set them side by side to compare. the problem was with the diameter of the TOB. it would just barely contact the tips of the fingers. the later/larger TOB contacts the fingers further "down" (which now that I think about it would mean that the smaller TOB would contact it sooner, thus release the clutch sooner. (if the TOB's were the same thickness (which they are not), so maybe it's a wash.... SubaruBrat (Scott) had a spacer made to be pressed on to the '82 carrier with the larger TOB so that it would work on the 82 tranny... every one of the 82 4WD trannies I have had, has had some problems, or totally grenaded.... (blew front diff once, and another I lost all the keys tha held the synchros in place ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 suppose the clutch cable was too tight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 nope. when I looked into doing it, the clutch guy and I set them side by side to compare. the problem was with the diameter of the TOB. it would just barely contact the tips of the fingers. I noticed this with mine, but measured it and the tob does contact the fingers properly (although only just). Anyway, put it togeter and works just fine, its done around 10,000kms with no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLCraig Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 You know the one thing that bugs me about this is that about 9 years ago now a buddy of mine and I transplanted an 82 D/R tranny into his 84 hatch. We used a SOA 84 4wd clutch kit and a new throw out bearing holder. everything went in fine and it still goes up and down the road without any problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 The setup is at Richie's shop right now being analyzed... I am gonna yank the carrier and junk tomorrow and make sure the bearing is pressed on all the way and the carrier is riding where it should be. Fox, we tried yanking the clutch cable totally off and the car still didnt move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archemitis Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 there is a tob that will work for you! its got a small center and a big bearing surface, its the same one i used to put the xt6 engine/flywheel/clutch, with the ea81 friction plate. from a 90s nissan pickup. you have to press the bearing off of the cast piece, and press the nissan one on. 87-90 nissan/all should work. mine was nachi/hks brand. sometimes the brand makes the difference. napa sells them with the bearing on the nissan bearing carrier. or just the bearing, all you need is the bearing. hope i read all that stuff right. and i hope this is the key that makes it all work. i resently had a wierd clutch issue. everything looked fine when i pulled it apart, but it wouldnt hold enough power to go over about 60 mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svengouli7 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Where you at w/ this Flow? On Archies suggestion I ordered up a Nissan TO bearing from partsbin w/ a bunch of other stuff (Schucks was out and Action closed when I made the buy) It looks like it could be a heavier bearing than the EA82 5spd 4wd has but the I.D unfortunately matches it, not the smaller 81-82 4wd TOB. I guess this weekend I'll hit the bearing shop in S Seattle where its all in one house and find a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 I don't understand why you guys are having such problems??? As I mentioned, my 83 turbo wagon has an 81 DR gearbox, throwout bearing carrier and throwout bearing, with an 83-84 clutch disk, pressure plate & flywheel. Is this different to what you are trying to achieve???? Maybe there is some difference in the diameter of the hole through the pressure plate fingers from brand to brand??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted February 3, 2005 Author Share Posted February 3, 2005 I got the flywheel back from the shop yesterday (broke a bolt and had it extracted) They cleaned the rust out of the threads too. Got brand new pressure plate bolts cause the old ones were damaged (streched threads!) I will bolt it all together tomorrow night hopefully This is the 82 style clutch going back in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted February 4, 2005 Author Share Posted February 4, 2005 Engine installed, just need to put on afew bolts and hoses and should see if the 82 style clutch works again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svengouli7 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Ross, I was actually trying to install a 5spd 4wd ea82 set with the 82 brat 4spd. The TOB is narrow enough it wouldn't even make contact w/ the fingers of the pressure plate. Well, hope the rest goes well for you Flow. I'll still be hitting hte bearing shop this weekend to see what I can see (although if Scott went through this w/ his brat I would think he would have found a bearing w/ same ID/working OD to use if it were available, aprticularly if he went through the trouble of having a bushing made) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted February 4, 2005 Author Share Posted February 4, 2005 Update, got the engine fired up this morning, the FULL 82 style clutch is slipping! And its brand new! So we are down to 1 of 2 things: A: The linkages need to be adjusted, though I think they are fine, a 3 inch lift shouldnt do much, or B: The throw out bearing is either too thick (subaru may have given me the wrong one) or not pressed on all the way. Here is why I think it may be B A diagram: ______ '''''''''''''''| '''''''''''''''| <---- TO Bearing '''''''''''''''| '''''''''''''| '''''''''''''| '''''''''''''| '''''''''''''| <---- Carrier '''''''''''''''| '''''''''''''''| _____ | <-Bottom of TO bearing Note ignore the commas, they are just to give the correct spacing on the diagram. See the idea? I am thinking the "|" of the bearing and carrier should be flush to avoid pushing the clutch unnecessarily. I was banging on the bearing with a socket and it felt like it was down all the way, but like I said maybe the dealer gave me the wrong bearing. Anyone know how the bearing should be sitting on an 82 brat? Flush or popping out like it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbrat Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Update, got the engine fired up this morning, the FULL 82 style clutch is slipping! And its brand new! So we are down to 1 of 2 things: A: The linkages need to be adjusted, though I think they are fine, a 3 inch lift shouldnt do much, or B: The throw out bearing is either too thick (subaru may have given me the wrong one) or not pressed on all the way. Here is why I think it may be B A diagram: ______ '''''''''''''''| '''''''''''''''| '''''''''''''''| '''''''''''''| '''''''''''''| '''''''''''''| '''''''''''''| '''''''''''''''| '''''''''''''''| _____ | Note ignore the commas, they are just to give the correct spacing on the diagram. See the idea? I am thinking the "|" of the bearing and carrier should be flush to avoid pushing the clutch unnecessarily. I was banging on the bearing with a socket and it felt like it was down all the way, but like I said maybe the dealer gave me the wrong bearing. Anyone know how the bearing should be sitting on an 82 brat? Flush or popping out like it is? I'l grab a pic of one tonight. I have 2 spares just laying around.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted February 4, 2005 Author Share Posted February 4, 2005 Sweet, I can wait til then. Now you will have me burning with anticipation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbrat Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 I think PK may have hit it on the head on your other post in the offroad forum.... here's my spare TOB's.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted February 6, 2005 Author Share Posted February 6, 2005 Hmmm so the one on the left looks alot like mine... (regarding the recess of the carrier in the center) looks like the bearing is not fully down on the carrier, the same as mine looks. But I dont think it can go any further on. The one on the right looks like its slightly thinner... Did you measure them to see if either one was thicker than the other? So everyone here really thinks that maybe my setup is just too thin? (like the flywheel was turned and the outside wasnt) Hmmm looking again maybe I have the setup on the right. At this point I think I only have 2 options: Tow it to Richie's shop and let his dad look at it or: Yank the TO bearing and carrier, turn the key and hold on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbrat Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 turn the key and hold on I really don't believe it's the TOB. there's enough play in there that if you've got the clutch cable off, there's no way it could be pressing that hard on the PP fingers. so you can put it in gear, stay off the clutch pedal and start it, and it won't move right....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted February 6, 2005 Author Share Posted February 6, 2005 I get in the car, start it, can get it in gear and it BARELY moves... I can push it faster! I think... back with the old clutch I could actually make it grind if I yanked the cable... hard to remember, but I got it to grind gears somehow... meaning it WAS getting power transfer enough to make it grind... probably JUST enough though, but not enough to effectively transfer full power. My guess still is that ya the FORK is slack, but the carrier is bottomed out on the tranny but is still pressing on the clutch unit. Until tomorrow though we wont know. If it turns out to be the problem I dont know what to do though... I pretty much confirmed by comparing a KNOWN 82 brat flywheel with XSNRG against this one that the flywheel is the correct unit, maybe it needs to be turned a bit or something (on the outer part, not the disk part) but it seems to be where it should. With a breaker bar on the crank the clutch feels like it grabs... but thats like 1 RPM, not 1000 so the load on the system is much less. I just want this thing working and running so I can drive it, finish it and sell it to pay for my wedding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svengouli7 Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 *pats self on back* well I think I fixed mine up (82 brat using lg clutch) The TO had been bad sooo long it had welded up- If I only had a camera that worked.. pathetic looking really. BUT- this worked out in that the inner race was froze on the carrier- I ground down the ridges on it, and oila! Custom spacer for the larger bearing that came in the clutch kit. Still plenty to do before I button it up and fire it up, will let yall know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Hmmm so the one on the left looks alot like mine... Thats odd, my '81 clutch (small) used the one on the right, which is also the one i'm now using with the '83+ size (big) clutch..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 UPDATE as of Feb 20th I stood in front of the brat, and cranked the engine with a breaker bar... it moved, but I could push against it and effectly make it slip I yanked the engine today, yanked the TO bearing and carrier. Re-installed (no wires or anything, just plopped it back in) Turned the engine over with a breaker bar... the brat is pretty much capable of running me over if I continue turning the breaker bar. So the clutch appears to NOT be slipping now. While I had the setup out there was a nice "clean" spot on the pressure plate fingers where it looks like the TO bearing has been riding on it. So... I guess the next step is to see if its pressed on properly, or maybe get a thinner TO bearing. Any other suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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