Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

HELP !!! Lifter noise bringing me down


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 markman34

markman34

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • calgary

Posted 24 January 2005 - 08:22 PM

Hi everyone. I'm just hoping to get some insight into the problem I'm having with my recent engine install.

I have an 88 GL wagon. 1.8L spfi EA82.

The engine that I just dropped in the car has developed a nasty tick and it's driving me nuts.

I repaired a broken exhaust valve, new HG's, pan gasket, etc and then dropped the engine in. During my rebuild, I cleaned and blew and vacuumed like crazy knowing the problems that these cars have with oil flow to the lifters. I didn't replace the oil pump as it was recently done and the engine had ample oil pressure when I took it out of the car.

When I fired the engine, after the smoke cleared, there was one lifter ticking mildly. I took the car out for a test drive and shut it down for the night.

The next morning the single lifter tick was far louder. I drove the car around a bit to shake things loose but the lifter continued to tick. This is when I went to the parts store and bought a bottle of valve medic made by gunk (I couldn't find this MMO stuff). I put this in the engine and went driving. Shortly after the noise seemed to change. It seems as though there are many lifters ticking badly now. (As though the oil had become too thin and I wasn't building pressure)

I noticed that the oil level had fallen a little so I topped it up with some 20-50. I drove the car home (about 50 km) and shut it down hoping that whatever was causing the tick had cleared.

Sadly, when I started the car again today, there was a chorus of ticking lifters.

The car sounds like and old vw diesel and I'm just sick of the idea that I have to take this engine out again.

Anyone have an idea for an easy "engine in" fix? What is this ATF solution I've heard of. Can the car be run using a ATF/MOTOR oil blend?

#2 Mike386

Mike386

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 40 posts
  • Florence

Posted 24 January 2005 - 09:39 PM

I don't think your going to find a quick solution from an additive. I take it that this tapping noise didn't exist before the repair? You may have missed something or something else may be damage as a result of the broken exhaust valve.





By any chance did you replace the oil sender o-ring on the cam towers? It is just a little smaller than a dime. If is old and harden it will leak oil and lessen the oil pressure to the lifters. There is also a pressure relief valve spring on the top of the cam tower underneath a 17mm bolt that could be weak. It can be accessed by just removing the valve cover, the oil sender o-ring requires you to pull the cam tower. You do not have to pull the engine to do this.

Q.-What is this ATF solution I've heard of. Can the car be run using an ATF/MOTOR oil blend?

A. – ATF acts like a detergent and is used for cleaning gunk out of the engine, from what I’ve been told you should only drive the car 100 miles with this blend 3:1 oil/ATF, and then change your oil. Don’t use it on a regular basis. Do not over fill your crank.


But I don’t think a dirty lifter is your problem. You say you replaced a broken valve? Did you check and/or replace the valve seat? Did you inspect all the valves and cylinder head for damage?



Hi everyone. I'm just hoping to get some insight into the problem I'm having with my recent engine install.

I have an 88 GL wagon. 1.8L spfi EA82.

The engine that I just dropped in the car has developed a nasty tick and it's driving me nuts.

I repaired a broken exhaust valve, new HG's, pan gasket, etc and then dropped the engine in. During my rebuild, I cleaned and blew and vacuumed like crazy knowing the problems that these cars have with oil flow to the lifters. I didn't replace the oil pump as it was recently done and the engine had ample oil pressure when I took it out of the car.

When I fired the engine, after the smoke cleared, there was one lifter ticking mildly. I took the car out for a test drive and shut it down for the night.

The next morning the single lifter tick was far louder. I drove the car around a bit to shake things loose but the lifter continued to tick. This is when I went to the parts store and bought a bottle of valve medic made by gunk (I couldn't find this MMO stuff). I put this in the engine and went driving. Shortly after the noise seemed to change. It seems as though there are many lifters ticking badly now. (As though the oil had become too thin and I wasn't building pressure)

I noticed that the oil level had fallen a little so I topped it up with some 20-50. I drove the car home (about 50 km) and shut it down hoping that whatever was causing the tick had cleared.

Sadly, when I started the car again today, there was a chorus of ticking lifters.

The car sounds like and old vw diesel and I'm just sick of the idea that I have to take this engine out again.

Anyone have an idea for an easy "engine in" fix? What is this ATF solution I've heard of. Can the car be run using a ATF/MOTOR oil blend?



#3 85Sub4WD

85Sub4WD

    EA82 Junkie

  • Members
  • 1,244 posts
  • Raleigh NC/Charlotte NC

Posted 24 January 2005 - 09:46 PM

20W-50 is WAY too heavy for the crankcase reguardless of the weather conditions outside. Change the oil with 10W-30 and put some Marvel Mystery Oil in with it (put the Mystery Oil in the crankcase) The additive DOES work, but putting the proper viscosity oil in there is the main thing.
Marvel Mystery Oil is sometimes thought to be ATF because both are red is NOT NOT NOT ATF, it is actually very close to kerosene as far as its composition. It removes contaminants to provide better oil flow. ATF burns fairly easily and WOULD gum your engine up badly. If you are using your orig. lash adjustors, then one might have some gunk in it. Rev the engine up to 4000-5000rpms for a few seconds to. If the lash adjustor is stuck, it should free. I have one get temporarally stuck and have to do this once every 30,000miles or so.

#4 chef_tim

chef_tim

    Romans 5:8

  • Members
  • 4,780 posts
  • Renner, SD

Posted 24 January 2005 - 09:48 PM

It will take some time to pump up the valves, they have air in them from the disassembly. Just drive it for a week or two and see if it doesn't clear up. Tim

#5 robaru

robaru

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63 posts
  • Columbia Gorge

Posted 24 January 2005 - 09:52 PM

There is lots of info here on lifter ticking, Do a search and you find tons. Very common problem. I'd suggest you re gasket your oil pump before you worry about pulling the motor. Replace the mickymouse gasket, oil seal and o-ring. Put a little bit of gasket sealant on the micky mouse gasket to hold it in place when you install the oil pump. don't twist from side to side when you put the oil pump back on, push it straight on. Also put just a bit of sealant at the top and bottom of the micky mouse gasket where the two joining lines of the block meet. Good luck. Though there are many more causes of lifter noise, this is probably a good place to start since you've tried the oil cleaner.

#6 markman34

markman34

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • calgary

Posted 24 January 2005 - 09:55 PM

Thanks for the response



When I tore the engine down because of the broken valve everything looked great except for the valve. I saw that the valve seat was fine and lapped the valve. The Subaru specialist around here said he'd never seen a valve fail like that before. Nor have I. It looked like it had been cut by a torch from inside the cylinder.

The reason that I think its cruddy lifters is that:

When I first fired up the engine, oil pressure was good and there was only a slight tick in ONE of the lifters. Later that day a severe tick from one lifter in the save vicinity on the passenger head. Only after I added the solvent stuff did the problem spread to the other lifters. Both sides of the engine.

I am hoping to silence the lifters/valves without yanking the valve covers and cam towers. If this is something I have to do I will do it.

I'm thinking I will begin refreshing my other EA82 (new HG's, and Cam box) and drop that in there when I get it finished. It's nice to have two engines.



I was hoping to get a few weeks out of all of this work on the car ya know?



Thanks again for the help guys



I don't think your going to find a quick solution from an additive. I take it that this tapping noise didn't exist before the repair? You may have missed something or something else may be damage as a result of the broken exhaust valve.





By any chance did you replace the oil sender o-ring on the cam towers? It is just a little smaller than a dime. If is old and harden it will leak oil and lessen the oil pressure to the lifters. There is also a pressure relief valve spring on the top of the cam tower underneath a 17mm bolt that could be weak. It can be accessed by just removing the valve cover, the oil sender o-ring requires you to pull the cam tower. You do not have to pull the engine to do this.

Q.-What is this ATF solution I've heard of. Can the car be run using an ATF/MOTOR oil blend?

A. – ATF acts like a detergent and is used for cleaning gunk out of the engine, from what I’ve been told you should only drive the car 100 miles with this blend 3:1 oil/ATF, and then change your oil. Don’t use it on a regular basis. Do not over fill your crank.


But I don’t think a dirty lifter is your problem. You say you replaced a broken valve? Did you check and/or replace the valve seat? Did you inspect all the valves and cylinder head for damage?



#7 markman34

markman34

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • calgary

Posted 25 January 2005 - 07:41 PM

checked pressure springs on the cam towers. Both are clean. This is not the problem. My pressure guage is reading the same as always. It's always been low on the guage so maybe a new OPSU. The guage has always read less than 3kg. Is this a normal pressure for this pump?
Oil pressure sending unit and oil pump gaskets on order.
Is it really possible that there could be a couple of lifters that haven't been pumped up yet? Even if the oiling system is clean and pumping to the lifter gallery?

Thanks

#8 chef_tim

chef_tim

    Romans 5:8

  • Members
  • 4,780 posts
  • Renner, SD

Posted 25 January 2005 - 09:22 PM

When I had the heads done on an EA82 it took close to two weeks for the tick to go away. I was just on the verge of taking it back and suddenly it was quiet. Give it some time. Oh, and yes, oil pressure is low on these beasts. Tim

#9 phishy75

phishy75

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 169 posts
  • victoria, bc, canada

Posted 25 January 2005 - 09:33 PM

If you're sure the mickey mouse gasket is in good shape and properly installed then I would definitely wait a while for any air in the lifters to work its way out - this can take quite a while.

Also you must be sure that a bit of gasket goo was put on both spots (top and bottom) where the mickey mouse gasket seats against the block mating surfaces. If not then you should pull it out and put some on 'cause it is a spot where the oil pump will suck air and you will never get rid of the tick no matter how much MMO or other additives you use.

#10 86subaru

86subaru

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 3,094 posts
  • ohio

Posted 25 January 2005 - 11:26 PM

20-w 50 is not to thick . when you use 10w 40 + alot of mmo it will thin it out ,

#11 markman34

markman34

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • calgary

Posted 26 January 2005 - 01:34 AM

well I have been driving around with the tach sitting at about 4000 and still no dice. tick tick tick (about 100 km )

shuting it down for today. More later

#12 ballitch

ballitch

    Certified Subaru Nut

  • Members
  • 999 posts
  • Salem, OR

Posted 26 January 2005 - 01:53 AM

patience markman-son.......hy





~Josh~

#13 markman34

markman34

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • calgary

Posted 26 January 2005 - 06:20 PM

Day three of driving around at 4k on the tach. tick tick tick. How embarrasing.

Though, the engine is pulling ok. No oil burning and not one leak!
I'm looking at the high idle right now. Mine's running a little high and will not kick down (ever) It used to kick down great.
As well, the engine runs a lot cooler since I added the gunk valve medic stuff. Now it won't ever get up to proper operating temp while driving.
I'm a little confused with the spfi high idle setup. I haveadjusted the idle screw to the max to bring the idle to spec. no dice. I picked up all the solonoid valves from the wrecker and am searching the MB for info on the problem

It's hard to pinpoint the lifter that's ticking when it's all reved out on high idle.

More later

#14 markman34

markman34

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • calgary

Posted 01 February 2005 - 06:02 PM

Well, it's been a week and I’ve still got tick tick ticking in my ears.

I have fixed the high idle problem and changed the oil to a 10-40 with a hint of ATF for cleaning. The 10-40 helps bring the oil pressure up from where it was before and I think it’s helping. I have noticed the ticking has decreased. I think it is limited to only one or two lifters now! :brow:

I will continue to drive around with the tach at 4-5k until the lifters fill up or my neighbours kill me for making so much noise. (What will happen first?)

I LOVE THESE CARS IN THE WINTER! I do wish I had a turbo wagon to satisfy my urges/curiosity though.

Alas, I may have to buy a new truck for work. This would be bad news for my little wagon that could. But, until then, I will drive the hell out of this rig.

(Looking forward to the coming snow fall)

#15 85Sub4WD

85Sub4WD

    EA82 Junkie

  • Members
  • 1,244 posts
  • Raleigh NC/Charlotte NC

Posted 01 February 2005 - 08:28 PM

NEVER run 10w-40 unless it is synthetic, then change every 3,000mi

Reason - MAJOR gelling issues, though it is spec for certain condition, 10w-40 is a bad oil, I have spent days cleaning the valve train on a car in which someone had used it and it had gelled (old '67 Chevy). I also know of a guy (friend's friend) who owned a Volvo and had a timing belt snap b/c the oil had gelled in it. (yes, he had been running 10w-40) Toyota (lexus) is finding that out the hard way b/c they designed an engine (can't remember which one) in the late '90s that was prone to gelling anyway, and then spec'd 10w-40 for it. Massive recall the result.

Solution - run 15w-40 or 15w-50 if you need something heavier than 10w-30, I use one of the 15w's during the summer, and 10w-30 during the winter.

#16 markman34

markman34

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • calgary

Posted 01 February 2005 - 11:28 PM

thanks for the tip!

I'm trying the 10-40 for one change. I'm hoping that before the oil is ready to change I will have my other EA82 stoked and ready to go.
The only thing that'll change would be if I were to find an EA82T to put in there.
I'm currently looking at all the q&a regarding the turbo engine swap!
I'll only have to listen to those lifters tick untill I find a new turbo wagon or change my engine out!
Problem almost solved!! :D

#17 markman34

markman34

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 115 posts
  • calgary

Posted 01 March 2005 - 09:33 AM

Fixed

So, weeks later and the problem has been fixed.
I added some ATF when the oil got a little low and within 1/2 hour driving the tick was gone.
I dropped the oil and filter and replaced with castrol 10w30 and all sounds well.
The valves are opening all the way now and the compression has come up in two cylinders.
Thanks for all the help everyone!

:grin:




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users