Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

EA82 Oil pump seal: Will this fix my noisy lifter?


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 asavage

asavage

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 338 posts
  • Port Townsend, Wash. 9836

Posted 01 September 2003 - 12:00 AM

What do you think: will replacing this mounting seal fix the cold lifter noise on the '93 Loyale?

Posted Image
Posted Image

I replaced all three pump seals tonight (including the shaft seal, which was pretty stiff), and I have to round up new tensioners and idler for the new timing belts tomorrow. I'm hoping that this sucked gasket was the cause of the intermittant lifter noise when cold on the ol' EA82.

#2 calebz

calebz

    Andys Coupe killed my cat

  • Administrator
  • 7,547 posts
  • Tacoma

Posted 01 September 2003 - 01:26 AM

That may very well do it..a gasket like that could cause your oil pump to suck air, causing the lifters to not pump up correctly. you might try the MMO treatment as well.. get some of the crud out.

#3 asavage

asavage

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 338 posts
  • Port Townsend, Wash. 9836

Posted 01 September 2003 - 11:08 PM

Damn! It didn't.

Got new timing belts & tensioners, replaced the idler bearing for the left belt, and the idler bearing for the A/C belt, fired it up, it did the same thing: tapping until warmed up, but the tapping comes & goes sudden-like, on the right side.

So . . . since I have a pretty good oil leak going right at the point of the cam case where the famously-leaking o-ring resides, I bit the bullet and followed Cameron's advice and pulled off the right cam case, removed all the lifters, took them all apart and carefully cleaned them.

Replaced that hard-as-a-rock o-ring that he points out, cleaned the oil relief valve under the banjo fitting, put it all back together . . . and it sounded pretty much the same when I fired it off. Drat!

The real test will be in the morning, when it's cold again, and the oil system's been purged by a 15 minute run.

However, I'm thinking that I really do have a bad lifter. Unfortunately, even with a stethesope, I can't tell which lifter it is -- I can't localize it. Conventional wisdom says to replace all four, but my cost on the damned things is $52 ea! Yikes!

#4 edrach

edrach

    RIP 6/28/14

  • Members
  • 12,326 posts
  • Bothell, WA

Posted 02 September 2003 - 05:30 AM

I can't take credit for this (belongs to qman) but the rational behind it makes sense. I have some jpgs to go with this but can't post them since I haven't figured out how to get them down to the 51K limit (they are about 250K each). I can forward them to anyone interested (better have broadband--there are 6 of them). However, here's the spiel:

Valve Clatter Fix

After you’ve tried detergent oil fixes (Marvel Mystery Oil, Rislone, Kersosene, Engine Flush, etc.) and eliminated a worn oil pump, oil pump seal, and everything else that might allow air to get into the hydraulic lifters causing them to clatter, you might try this before you tear the engine down to get to the lifters themselves. Credit for this goes to qman and I think it may be the fix for those EA82 engines where the clatter seems to come and go at will and the oil pressure seems good.

Remove the cam cover on the side that seems to be most prone to clatter (or you might need to do this on both sides). With the cam cover removed, see the 14mm stud with the horizontal tube welded to it. This stud is actually hollow and houses an oil passage check valve. The purpose of the check valve is to not allow oil into the horizontal tube (which is used to squirt oil onto the cams) until an oil pressure of 15PSI is reached. The purpose of that pressure is to fill the hydraulic lifters. IF THAT 15 PSI IS NOT ATTAINED, THE LIFTERS WILL CLATTER! The clatter will occur if the valve is stuck open due to crud in the oil, a stuck valve cup, or a weak spring allowing the check valve to open at low (i.e. less than 15 PSI) pressure. If that’s the case, the repair is to remove the cam cover, remove the 14mm stud, remove the spring, remove the cup and clean the valve seat and the components (a q-tip will do a good job cleaning the valve seat, just don’t leave any cotton residue in there). You can stretch the spring if you like to cause the check valve to open at a higher pressure, but it’s best to just replace the spring (p/n 15020AA011 and it’s only $2.70 at your dealer). Re-assemble as needed (I don’t know the torque needed to re-tighten the 14mm stud, but since it’s hollow you can easily break it off if you over-tighten it. Now is also a good time to replace the cam cover gaskets and rubber grommets sealing the cam cover.

#5 asavage

asavage

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 338 posts
  • Port Townsend, Wash. 9836

Posted 02 September 2003 - 07:44 AM

. . . cleaned the oil relief valve under the banjo fitting . . .


I cleaned that. Spring was in OK condition.

#6 Skip

Skip

    Flatuous Blather

  • Moderator
  • 8,991 posts
  • Latrobe, Pennsylvania

Posted 02 September 2003 - 08:13 AM

Al by chance did you check the pump rotor to housing clearance
(both to the side of the housing and the top)
The FSM gives specs for these clearences.

Are you running 20w/50 Castrol GTX now?
The MMO and the above oil does take up to 100 mi. of driving to effect a fix, maybe you need a few more miles on (just a sug.)

#7 edrach

edrach

    RIP 6/28/14

  • Members
  • 12,326 posts
  • Bothell, WA

Posted 02 September 2003 - 09:01 AM

Sorry, I missed the part about cleaning the oil relief valve. Too early in the morning for me.
Are you sure the spring is still at the same tension/compression? If the heat from the engine has changed the temper of the spring, it could be opening at too low a pressure. Just a thought.

#8 asavage

asavage

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 338 posts
  • Port Townsend, Wash. 9836

Posted 03 September 2003 - 12:21 AM

Skip:
No, I didn't check the oil pump rotor-to-hsg clearance, though I did pull it out and look at both, looking for obvious wear and scoring: none found that was disturbingly bad.

On the oil: Gack! No, I'm not running 20W50. I'm a bit of an oil snob. I've just acquired this car last week, and have it running Chevron 10W30 for cleanout, and will switch to Mobil 1 10W30 after a couple more hundred miles -- I have 150 miles on this oil, and it's already looking lousy.

edrach:
While it's common for springs that are exercised frequently to change their rate and total loading, I am reluctant to believe that this little spring under the banjo fitting has seen a lot of exercise. Not much polishing of the (not very precision) plunger it operates, and even if it was sacked, I doubt that it would change the pressure regulation much: that whole passage is fairly small.

I found a source for lifters at $28 ea (cost, Beck-Arnley, made in Spain, probably on the plain), so I ordered up a set of four and installed them tonight (three more hours: I'm getting faster at this). After initial bleed, I was surprised to find that the engine overall is quite a bit quieter, I must have thought that the general racket was "normal Subaru noise", but now I can actually hear the lifter(s) murmuring on the "other" (driver's) side now. Drove it home 15 miles, sounds nice.

Now, if it'll be this quiet tomorrow at 6am, I may have it licked. I'll post tomorrow with results, good or bad.

I was sure hoping that the bad gasket above was the cause!

#9 Skip

Skip

    Flatuous Blather

  • Moderator
  • 8,991 posts
  • Latrobe, Pennsylvania

Posted 03 September 2003 - 10:11 AM

Al
Your knowledge and experience in the automotive field are very welcome and appreciated here.
This post is in reference to your comment
"On the oil: Gack! No, I'm not running 20W50. I'm a bit of an oil snob."
This must have been said as you feel the 20w/50 is too thick for our engines. Again it is summer here.
The normal "fix mix" includes 8 oz. of MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil)
This "Gack" may be from experience with "normal" in line engines. Study the architecture of our horizontally opposed "boxer" engines and you will see the "head" or height to pump is far lower, thus time to lubricate certain items like cam shafts is reduced significantly.
This coupled with the use of a good oil filter with a anti drain back valve allows our engine to operate very well with this weight oil in the summer months. Many cases of valve clatter have been solved by switching to this oil. The reason is no doubt because the pressure in the lifter gallery is maintained at a point where the lifters stay pumped up.
BTW I was one of the originators of the lifter gallery relief valve problem. I bought new springs and compared their rate with my 100 kmi old ones. As you surmised the reduction in spring rate was negligible, I feel varnish on the seat and valve are cleaned by the MMO and help correct the problem.
I say all this from years of experience with these engines, sorry if it goes against your knowledge, I do not mean to offend
Welcome aboard, very good to have you take time to post.

#10 Qman

Qman

    Happiness is... no lag!!

  • Moderator
  • 11,119 posts
  • Sumner

Posted 03 September 2003 - 11:08 AM

Good job Skip. You beat me to it. I am curius what oil filter you are running. The spring is used the entire time your engine runs and there is alot of heat associated with oiling. $2.70 x 2 seems alot cheaper than a new set of lifters as well. But it is your call.

There is a seal between the head and cam case that will look just like that oil pump gasket. It seals the oil journal that goes to the tube and check valve.

Qman

#11 oregonloyale

oregonloyale

    User Awaiting Email Confirmation

  • Members
  • 255 posts
  • salem

Posted 03 September 2003 - 12:47 PM

Asavage, I just went through the same problem.
Did the 20w50 w/ MMO
Did the engine flush.
Did the check valve spring, all in that order .
Still friggin noisy lifter!
I bit the bullet and pulled the oil pump.
I had the same wear as your pump did.
I replcaed the mickey mouse gasket , the shaft oil ring and the round O ring and.....................
Walaaaaaaaaaa noisy lifter GONE!
Did you replace the large O ring and the shaft seal on the oil pump ?
Oh yaeh mines a EA82 92 loyale .

#12 asavage

asavage

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 338 posts
  • Port Townsend, Wash. 9836

Posted 03 September 2003 - 10:34 PM

Hello, Skip:

Sometimes my writing seems more abrasive than I meant it ;) Also, I really am not all that familiar with the Subaru culture etc. My previous Subaru was purchased because it was an eyesore in front of a house in Everett that I began renting in 1986. So, naturally, I bought it :) $50. It was a '73 (GL? DL?), pumpkin orange with a peeling black vinyl roof, and it had been punched pretty hard in back. The more I worked with it, the more impressed I was with it. Electric fuel pump, electric rad fan, in '73. I eventually ran it up and down from Everett to Salem every other week (long distance affair), got 31 mpg and it would scatch in 2nd, really fast off the line. I can recall one trip in December, with a storm blowing through, I was on I-5 in Centralia area, noticed that the speedo was moving up and down from 60-80 and back. Weird, I thought. Then, I realized that I was hydroplaning, but driving just as smooth as can be.

Aaron's wrecking was the Subaru mecca for Seattlites at the time -- are they still in business? I recall very friendly staff, exceptionally cheap parts, and an impossible to get to location -- you could see it, but you couldn't actually drive to it! I found Aaron's from his sticker that someone had put inside the cover of the used Haynes manual I'd bought for that '73.

Well, the car was pretty well worn, the (1300?) was a bit loose, and especially the trans input seal would dump about a quart of GL5 every week, so I sold it to a kid for $250 in early '87. And though about 40 cars/trucks/MCs have come and gone in the years between, this '93 Loyale wgn is only my 2nd Subaru, and I didn't buy it for myself, but for a friend whose wife always wanted one, and because the seller needed cash quick to move back to Pittsburg. Win-win.

So, if I've stepped on some long-standing Subaru tradition WRT 20W50 oill, I'll act somewhat contrite -- for a while.

This must have been said as you feel the 20w/50 is too thick for our engines


I'm a fan of synthetic oils, specifically, and low viscosity oils in general. Back in the heyday of VWs (I also owned a bunch of Corvairs, loved 'em), I was in the thick of it, and Castrol GTX 20W50 was "the thing". I think, for the same reasons that it seems to be popular with other loose-tolerance engines: heavy base viscosity masks other issues, from a lack of oil volume (exhibited by a lack of pressure, naturally) to worn parts, to design flaws.

While running a heavier oil will boost system pressure, it's not a cure for the root problem(s). I've owned enough beaters to know that it's a valid economic decision to run heavier-than-spec'd oil. I've also achieved a place where I don't have to settle for that fix -- I can afford to chase causes, invest time and effort to overcome them . . . or revert to 20W50, if I feel like it.

Right now, I'm not tired enough to give up :)

Qman:

There is a seal between the head and cam case that will look just like that oil pump gasket. It seals the oil journal that goes to the tube and check valve.


Yup, and Cameron's page is specific about replacing it. Mine was (as seems typical for the EA82) hard as a rock, and additionally was leaking external to the engine, which was one of the factors that led me to R&R the camcase. (The other side is leaking at the same point, and I might work up the gumption to R&R that side as well -- but probably not.]

oregonloyale:

Did you replace the large O ring and the shaft seal on the oil pump ?


Yup, I bought an oil pump install kit from Beck-Arnley, in-stock at my local parts place, even up here in the sticks! Something like $15 for the seal, o-ring, and "mickey mouse" profile gasket. The large o-ring was in decent shape, but the shaft seal was pretty stiff, though not crumbly-hard.

=========================

Now, for the good news: I got three, quiet cold starts out of it today, after replacing the four right lifters last night. That's a first for this car, in the 10 days I've owned it. I'll be firing it up again in nine hours, and if it's quiet two days in a row, I'm gonna declare the noise banished.

If so, then I must have had one of the rare faulty lifters, in addition to the camcase o-ring leak, the oil pump mtg gasket leak, and the varnished camcase drip tube regulator shuttle.

MMO might have eventually freed up the shuttle, but as I disassembled and thoroughly cleaned those four lifters with no improvement, I've got to believe that MMO wouldn't have done a thing for them.

Neither would running 20W50 have repaired the leaking camcase o-ring, nor the oil pump's multiple sealing issues, and it would have actively discouraged the MMO from doing its thing on the shuttle valve. When the goal is to remove deposits, you don't want thick oil.

Now, if the bottom-end starts a-knocking, and I can't afford or don't want to delve into that level of repair, I'd switch to 20W50 or even 30 in a heartbeat. But not for this car, not for now, and not for this (noisy lifter) problem.

Thanks for all the advice, folks. I found lots of good tips and helpful people, which is 3/4's the battle.

[Now, where can I learn more about the 3AT's governor problem?]

#13 Skip

Skip

    Flatuous Blather

  • Moderator
  • 8,991 posts
  • Latrobe, Pennsylvania

Posted 04 September 2003 - 07:40 AM

Al. most excellent wish you well with the un click and clack

I take it you read my diatribe in the USRM on the 3AT govenor shuttle debur and clean?
If you have any other questions please feel to post a thread on it
or email me directly.

#14 korrupt66

korrupt66

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 69 posts
  • Hillsboro, NH

Posted 04 September 2003 - 01:40 PM

I changed my oil pump altoghter and I'm using Castrol high mileage 10-30 and noise is gone.:banana: 93 subaru loyale.

#15 holylandsuba

holylandsuba

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 22 posts
  • Israel

Posted 13 February 2004 - 12:17 PM

my macanic didn't manage to stop the broken lifter noise.

replacing the engine was faster.:mad:

now i know what to do.

tnx all!

:)

#16 teasdam

teasdam

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 126 posts
  • Eaton, CO

Posted 13 February 2004 - 02:52 PM

My experience is mostly with the Chevy 350, and I guess I'm jumping in late here but I have a question about these subie engines....

Noisy lifters seem to be a common problem judging by the posts in this forum. First, I have an ea82 SPFI...the things my Chilton's refers to as "lash adjusters" I would've called hydraulic lifters. Are these synonomous terms?

I assume these lash adjusters require pressure from the oil system to operate properly, so as I understand this, if they are niosy it's most likely a problem with air in the system or some other low oil pressure related issue?

One more...specifically, is this noise created by the back end of the rocker arms smacking against the top of the lifters?

#17 asavage

asavage

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 338 posts
  • Port Townsend, Wash. 9836

Posted 14 February 2004 - 12:20 PM

Originally posted by teasdam
Noisy lifters seem to be a common problem judging by the posts in this forum. First, I have an ea82 SPFI...the things my Chilton's refers to as "lash adjusters" I would've called hydraulic lifters. Are these synonomous terms?

Yes. I speak Brit -- I worked in a British motorcycle repair shop during my formative years, and drove Hillmans for several years, so I can translate "spanner", "boot", and "windscreen/backlight" with ease ;).

I assume these lash adjusters require pressure from the oil system to operate properly, so as I understand this, if they are niosy it's most likely a problem with air in the system or some other low oil pressure related issue?

This seems to be the concensus.

On the EA82, the sucked oil pump mounting gasket shown in the pic at the top of this thread is a very common problem. I replaced the one shown, and when I pulled the motor 4k later, the new one was already deformed and starting to become like the old one. I glued in the next replacement and I'm hoping for better long-term results.

It is high pressure differential on that gasket that causes the deformity (well, it's really caused by a poor casting design, but that's not so easy to fix, except by an EJ22 transplant), and running higher viscosity oil (as most suggest) is going to make the deformity worse, faster. There, that'll be a controverisial statement [waving red cape]. It requires a higher vacuum to move a given volume of oil of higher viscosity, than of lower viscosity. Higher vacuum = higher pressure differential on the gasket = gasket deforms faster/farther. File that under "Reasons to Stay Away from 20W50 in the EA82 engine."

That'll really get the teeth gnashing -- expect vociferous rebuttal here. Including testimonials on how 20W50 immediately fixed their problem, or how they've been running 20W50 for years etc etc . . . but read on.

On the lifter problem:

One theory is that the oil becomes aerated from the leak in the deformed gasket on the suction side of the pump, and that the aerated oil prevents the lifters from becoming solid. I have my doubts about the being a cause of significant lifter noise for a couple of reasons. Why is it that I only hear one -- or sometimes two -- lifters banging away? If aerated oil is happening, then air should be being fed to all the lifters, and I should hear a lot more racket. Also, I'd bet that the actual effect of aerated oil would be delayed valve opening, not banging rockers. But that last is only a good guess.

I can say that repairing the gasket shown above on my own vehicle did not noticeably quiet my noisy lifter, nor did disassembly/cleaning of all lifters on that side of the engine. The way I finally banished the noise was to replace four lifters with new ones: that did the trick.

As an aside, the EA82 lifter design is such that you don't need to keep each old lifter with its bore, should you take them out for cleaning. Unlike the SBC (and a lot of other hydraulic lifter equipped engines of that period), the EA82 lifter itself does not move up and down in its bore with every cycle, and does not contact the cam lobe at all. So -- other than the rocker arm pivot area, there is no "wear-in" area for the EA82 lifter, and you can happily swap them all around if you like, with no detrimental effect. Try that on a SBC (or SBF or actually any similar engine of that period) and you're asking for cam lobe failure and dished lifters.

One more...specifically, is this noise created by the back end of the rocker arms smacking against the top of the lifters?


Who can say?
Probably not, but it's not really useful to know for certain. Is it the lifter pivot/rocker arm interface, the rocker arm/cam lobe interface, or the rocker arm/valve interface that's got excessive clearance? Doesn't matter, as it's all the same cause: too much clearance caused by a hydraulic lifter which is not doing its job.


From my reading on USMB, here's a summary of EA82 noisy lifter issues:

a) dirty lifter internals -- might be repaired by the Marvel Mystery Oil (or similar engine flush-like substance) treatment

B) aeration of oil -- might be repaired by regasketing the oil pump

c) insufficient oil volume/pressure (worn engine) -- might be repaired by:
. i) installation of oversized oil pump.
. ii) changing to higher viscosity oil
. iii) reduce engine bearing clearances

d) stuck/seized pressure relief valve in heads -- might be repaired by removing and cleaning the relief valve(s) and/or replacing the relief valve springs

e) damaged lifter -- repaired by replacement

All of the above methods have their advocates. I have personal experience with e) on my own vehicle, and successful repair with a) on a EJ22 -- a "five minute fix", what a pleasant surprise last month.

#18 Erik R

Erik R

    Crazy about Sube's

  • Members
  • 193 posts
  • Cameron Park, CA.

Posted 14 February 2004 - 10:36 PM

I chopped up asavages reply........I'm not good at this, so bear with me please.

Originally posted by asavage

This seems to be the concensus.

On the EA82, the sucked oil pump mounting gasket shown in the pic at the top of this thread is a very common problem. I replaced the one shown, and when I pulled the motor 4k later, the new one was already deformed and starting to become like the old one. I glued in the next replacement and I'm hoping for better long-term results.

It is high pressure differential on that gasket that causes the deformity (well, it's really caused by a poor casting design, but that's not so easy to fix, except by an EJ22 transplant), and running higher viscosity oil (as most suggest) is going to make the deformity worse, faster. There, that'll be a controverisial statement [waving red cape]. It requires a higher vacuum to move a given volume of oil of higher viscosity, than of lower viscosity. Higher vacuum = higher pressure differential on the gasket = gasket deforms faster/farther. File that under "Reasons to Stay Away from 20W50 in the EA82 engine."

That'll really get the teeth gnashing -- expect vociferous rebuttal here. Including testimonials on how 20W50 immediately fixed their problem, or how they've been running 20W50 for years etc etc . . . but read on.



I agree with this mostly; but must break ranks with you on the "viscosity" thing..................As oil is heated, it's viscosity drops and these engines run hot (heat makes power).........................the "W" after the "20" in "20W-50" only denotes that it is suitable for winter use, but only down to about +20 deg. Myself, I wouldn't use it if ambient temps are going to be below freezing (32 deg. F. here in U.S.). Since many people (I say this because I am a user on other auto/truck MB's) think the "W" stands for "weight"........try putting a bottle of your favorite 10w-40 on a scale.........then try the 20w-50...........does the higher grade oil weigh more????
The problem might be more related to service intervals and type of oil filter used...........how long do you go between oil changes? Does your oil filter have a check valve in it?

On the lifter problem:

One theory is that the oil becomes aerated from the leak in the deformed gasket on the suction side of the pump, and that the aerated oil prevents the lifters from becoming solid. I have my doubts about the being a cause of significant lifter noise for a couple of reasons. Why is it that I only hear one -- or sometimes two -- lifters banging away? If aerated oil is happening, then air should be being fed to all the lifters, and I should hear a lot more racket. Also, I'd bet that the actual effect of aerated oil would be delayed valve opening, not banging rockers. But that last is only a good guess.
I can say that repairing the gasket shown above on my own vehicle did not noticeably quiet my noisy lifter, nor did disassembly/cleaning of all lifters on that side of the engine. The way I finally banished the noise was to replace four lifters with new ones: that did the trick. [/B]



I agree here also. Why just one lifter or two? Why does it require total replacement to solve the problem?

As an aside, the EA82 lifter design is such that you don't need to keep each old lifter with its bore, should you take them out for cleaning. Unlike the SBC (and a lot of other hydraulic lifter equipped engines of that period), the EA82 lifter itself does not move up and down in its bore with every cycle, and does not contact the cam lobe at all. So -- other than the rocker arm pivot area, there is no "wear-in" area for the EA82 lifter, and you can happily swap them all around if you like, with no detrimental effect. Try that on a SBC (or SBF or actually any similar engine of that period) and you're asking for cam lobe failure and dished lifters. [/B]



Any engine with "ramps" on the camshaft and lifters that are ground convex will require that they stay in the same position for the duration of their service life. They rotate slowly to prevent wear.........since both the cam and lifters (cam followers) are cast iron.........kind of dumb; don't you think?..........seen any 300k sbc's lately???

Who can say?
Probably not, but it's not really useful to know for certain. Is it the lifter pivot/rocker arm interface, the rocker arm/cam lobe interface, or the rocker arm/valve interface that's got excessive clearance? Doesn't matter, as it's all the same cause: too much clearance caused by a hydraulic lifter which is not doing its job.


From my reading on USMB, here's a summary of EA82 noisy lifter issues:

a) dirty lifter internals -- might be repaired by the Marvel Mystery Oil (or similar engine flush-like substance) treatment

B) aeration of oil -- might be repaired by regasketing the oil pump

c) insufficient oil volume/pressure (worn engine) -- might be repaired by:
. i) installation of oversized oil pump.
. ii) changing to higher viscosity oil
. iii) reduce engine bearing clearances

d) stuck/seized pressure relief valve in heads -- might be repaired by removing and cleaning the relief valve(s) and/or replacing the relief valve springs

e) damaged lifter -- repaired by replacement

All of the above methods have their advocates. I have personal experience with e) on my own vehicle, and successful repair with a) on a EJ22 -- a "five minute fix", what a pleasant surprise last month. [/B]



asavage, You covered it! I just think the lifters only need a steady supply of CLEAN oil............I think the pressure thing is blow way out of proportion..................the lash adjusters (not lifters, they don't move too much) pump themselves up, but have no real way to flush themselves out..........dirt gets in, the unit malfuntions. Dirty oil is trapped inside with a quantity of engine oil................heat does the rest. The check valves stick shut and even if you change the oil; the good, clean oil won't just go right in..............remember, the check balls are stuck, so the oil just passes by and is bled off at the releif valve in the "Banjo" bolt.

Sorry folks, I think it is a design flaw...................but it doesn't stop the engine from running almost FOREVER................

I have owned and worked on many cars; but I think the Sube is one of the best.

#19 torxxx

torxxx

    I void warranties

  • Members
  • 2,914 posts
  • Fairbanks

Posted 14 February 2004 - 10:44 PM

I run napa 15w40 fleet oil and my car doesnt tick
I run any 10w30 car ticks like hell

#20 Erik R

Erik R

    Crazy about Sube's

  • Members
  • 193 posts
  • Cameron Park, CA.

Posted 14 February 2004 - 11:10 PM

Fleet oils have ash in them so you can use it in diesels...........diesels have a lot of blow-by and the oil tends to acidify quickly..............ash neutralizes acids..............

I have used Delo 400 before in a V8 and it worked quite well..........Never tried Rotella, but I hear good things about it.

Synthetic oil?...........too expensive and you will have leaks in places you never had leaks before...............

Torxxx, what kind of oil filter do you use? Just curious..........

I don't to go way off-topic here.............

oil pumps and lifters..............:D

#21 torxxx

torxxx

    I void warranties

  • Members
  • 2,914 posts
  • Fairbanks

Posted 14 February 2004 - 11:13 PM

purlator pure one filters

Too many miles on my car to convert to synthetic now..
I change my oil ever 1500 miles anyways so the cheap napa 15w40 works just fine
and it leaks a lot less..

#22 asavage

asavage

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 338 posts
  • Port Townsend, Wash. 9836

Posted 14 February 2004 - 11:20 PM

Originally posted by Erik R
I agree with this mostly; but must break ranks with you on the "viscosity" thing..................As oil is heated, it's viscosity drops and these engines run hot . . .

Do you think that the EA82 runs hotter than, say, a Toyota 22R?

Just because it's all-aluminum-alloy construction does not imply that it runs hotter than other conventional designs, only that it's lighter and can theoretically dissapate heat faster -- which implies it runs cooler than other designs <grin>.

If you accept that, then the you'd have to admit that the idea of running a base viscosity of 20 doesn't make sense from a maintenance standpoint . . . but, because of the combination of factors I cited, it may make good economic sense!

. . . the "W" after the "20" in "20W-50" only denotes that it is suitable for winter use . . .

You are one of only four people whom I've met over the years who knew that ;). (I actually won a "door prize" at a seminar last year, because I was able to correctly answer the question, "what does the 'W' designate".)

The problem might be more related to service intervals and type of oil filter used...........how long do you go between oil changes? Does your oil filter have a check valve in it?

I completely agree. Clean oil is the best way to minimize wear in any hydraulic system, including of course hydraulic "lifters" (I'm sticking with the US colloquialism because to insist on a more correct term is not only confusing to US readers, it's also harder to type!).

Personally, these days I'm running Wix filters on my EA82 (51361, or if you buy the NAPA-branded Wix filter, it's 1361). They have the orange silicone anti-drainback valve, which in theory has higher temperature resistance to hardening. I don't know if this is really an issue if one changes the oil on time, but I've seen the black neoprene ADVs fail -- pull off the filter after the engine's sat overnight, no oil comes out: the filter's only half full: bad ADV.

I agree here also. Why just one lifter or two? Why does it require total replacement to solve the problem?

In my case, I had a noisy lifter for less than 15 seconds on a cold start. I disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled all four suspect lifters, but the problem persisted. To me, this implies that one lifter was leaking down at night, and it took 15 seconds for enough oil to pump it up. It might have been a leaking check ball, but more likely it was excessive bore/sleeve leakage, because I had inspected the lifter parts pretty well.

Several days after the R&R operation, I took it all apart again, replaced all four lifters, end of problem. Why all four? Because I could not accurately ascertain which lifter on that side of the engine was failed. Purely economic reason to replace them all -- I value my spare time! I'd already tried the cheap-out method -- cleaning the old lifters -- and, as usual when I try to shortcut, I got burned.

Of course, there are thousands of EA82s running around with cold start lifter noise; this doesn't prevent them from running perfectly fine. I imagine that most people wouldn't bother fixing this kind of issue.

Any engine with "ramps" on the camshaft and lifters that are ground convex will require that they stay in the same position for the duration of their service life. They rotate slowly to prevent wear.........since both the cam and lifters (cam followers) are cast iron.........kind of dumb; don't you think?..........seen any 300k sbc's lately???

Again, you demonstrate your education. Though if you've ever watched a SB-anything in good condition run with a valve cover removed (not recommended!), you know that "rotating slowly" isn't what they normally do. Every one (again, in good condition) rotated pretty darned fast. Well, "fast" in this context is very much a relative thing. At idle . . . the ones I've seen can rotate the pushrod (which is rotated by the lifter) about 15-20 RPM.

For the rest of the audience: the lifter bore centerline is offset slightly from the cam lobe centerline. That's why rotation is imparted to the lifter. It's designed like this to try to equalize wear on the cam lobe and lifter scuff end.

Now I've got to get back to assembling the EA82 over here on the engine stand . . . stoopid me, I looked right at the R&L heads, and still torqued them on backwards! EGP port is apparently the only difference, so you folks running w/o EGR don't have to care about R&L heads, I guess. I had to backtrack and swap them around, and naturally, I'd already glued one camcase on. I hate removing RTV, and half-set-up RTV is even worse.

#23 richierich

richierich

    Moderator

  • Moderator
  • 3,760 posts
  • Portland

Posted 15 February 2004 - 03:11 AM

I have tried all the little things to fix the lifter ticking.

We use to do a lot of Turbo Motors, would take them out. Clean them up. Put on better heads. clean the cam case, check the spring. Put on 100% new seals and gaskets. (all OEM cuz my father was working at the dealership) Put it back together with the old oil pump. And 4/5 of the vehicles we did still ticked. I would have to go back in and replace the oil pump. Ticking always went away. After those, always new oil pump. ( I HATE doing stuff more than once)

I am just saying this works for me. I am in no way discounting what has worked for others. If you have a plugged oil passage, bad spring, dirty lifters, excessive leaks, even new oil pump will not help you. But when you start the vehicle up in the morning you should be getting up to 85 psi, and then it should drop down to 45, and then it should stay above 13psi. If it doesn't the oil pump is suspect.

Recently, I have been able to get Atsugi Oil Pumps (Original Manufacter for Subaru) for $65 bucks, now I replace them with every timing belt I do above 120k on my own cars, weather they need it or not.

#24 Erik R

Erik R

    Crazy about Sube's

  • Members
  • 193 posts
  • Cameron Park, CA.

Posted 15 February 2004 - 12:19 PM

Originally posted by asavage
Do you think that the EA82 runs hotter than, say, a Toyota 22R?
Just because it's all-aluminum-alloy construction does not imply that it runs hotter than other conventional designs, only that it's lighter and can theoretically dissapate heat faster -- which implies it runs cooler than other designs <grin>.

No, any internal combustion engine will be designed for maximum efficiency......which would be running at 198 deg F..........
How does the heat dissapation factor in? It's the expansion that's causing the trouble............aluminum alloys expand several times faster than steel or cast iron (Toyota 22R is a Cast iron block, w/adj. rocker arms......last time I checked!) ; making it necessary to have a constantly variable "lash adjuster/ lifter" (read"hydraulic" here).........If the check valves are stuck, this would explain why they are noisy when cold.......then the noise goes away after warm-up.

If you accept that, then the you'd have to admit that the idea of running a base viscosity of 20 doesn't make sense from a maintenance standpoint . . . but, because of the combination of factors I cited, it may make good economic sense!

If this was a stationary engine, in say a generator application; this would be a moot point. Single grade oil would be employed; season specific, of course. I'm sure some people may run 30w oil............why not? I have seen VW engines go 140k miles before tear down......owner only used 30w oil, same brand. All this and an engine with NO oil filter (that "rock screen" doesn't count as a filter).
Now, I'm not saying 20w-50 is THE answer to anything; but it's well suited to high mileage engines that tend to leak and have some blow-by.

Personally, these days I'm running Wix filters on my EA82 (51361, or if you buy the NAPA-branded Wix filter, it's 1361). They have the orange silicone anti-drainback valve, which in theory has higher temperature resistance to hardening. I don't know if this is really an issue if one changes the oil on time, but I've seen the black neoprene ADVs fail -- pull off the filter after the engine's sat overnight, no oil comes out: the filter's only half full: bad ADV.

I have always had oil drain out when changing the filter...........I have always used NAPA and Wix filters...........still had lifter noise.

In my case, I had a noisy lifter for less than 15 seconds on a cold start. I disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled all four suspect lifters, but the problem persisted. To me, this implies that one lifter was leaking down at night, and it took 15 seconds for enough oil to pump it up. It might have been a leaking check ball, but more likely it was excessive bore/sleeve leakage, because I had inspected the lifter parts pretty well.

Several days after the R&R operation, I took it all apart again, replaced all four lifters, end of problem. Why all four? Because I could not accurately ascertain which lifter on that side of the engine was failed. Purely economic reason to replace them all -- I value my spare time! I'd already tried the cheap-out method -- cleaning the old lifters -- and, as usual when I try to shortcut, I got burned.

Of course, there are thousands of EA82s running around with cold start lifter noise; this doesn't prevent them from running perfectly fine. I imagine that most people wouldn't bother fixing this kind of issue.


It didn't go away for me until I replaced the lash adjusters with OEM units...........Yes, all four of them.

Again, you demonstrate your education. Though if you've ever watched a SB-anything in good condition run with a valve cover removed (not recommended!), you know that "rotating slowly" isn't what they normally do. Every one (again, in good condition) rotated pretty darned fast. Well, "fast" in this context is very much a relative thing. At idle . . . the ones I've seen can rotate the pushrod (which is rotated by the lifter) about 15-20 RPM.

For the rest of the audience: the lifter bore centerline is offset slightly from the cam lobe centerline. That's why rotation is imparted to the lifter. It's designed like this to try to equalize wear on the cam lobe and lifter scuff end.


Sorry I left out the "off-center" part in regard to "conventional" cam/lifter relationships..............On the rotational RPM's; I'll have to take your word for it, as I have never counted rotations on my lifters before (V8's here). Too busy pre-loading the lifters.............I have stock valve covers with the tops cut out.......no mess, no oil on the manifolds during adjustment.....
asavage,
Lively discussion here........I like it! I don't mean to be contentious at all...............Thanks for the compliments..........I don't consider myself to be "educated", but I do know a little about a few things.........
Experience has been a tough teacher.............."there are no free scholarships to the school of experience".......................:D

#25 asavage

asavage

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 338 posts
  • Port Townsend, Wash. 9836

Posted 15 February 2004 - 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Erik R
How does the heat dissapation factor in? It's the expansion that's causing the trouble............aluminum alloys expand several times faster than steel or cast iron (Toyota 22R is a Cast iron block, w/adj. rocker arms......last time I checked!) ; making it necessary to have a constantly variable "lash adjuster/ lifter" (read"hydraulic" here)

You said you disagreed with not using 20W50, because "these engines run hot" (IIRC). I was saying that EA82s don't run any hotter than anybody else's engine ;).

Yes, the expansion rate of aluminum alloy is much higher than cast iron -- I used to own Corvairs :)

.........If the check valves are stuck, this would explain why they are noisy when cold.......then the noise goes away after warm-up.

Quite so. The lifter whose valve is in the partial-open position when the engine is stopped, bleeds off some of the oil that the check valve is supposed to retain. On startup, that lifter needs several seconds (about 15, in my case) to replenish with new oil and take up the slack again.

If this was a stationary engine, in say a generator application; this would be a moot point. Single grade oil would be employed; season specific, of course.

Agreed. But I doubt that there are many stationary Subaru applications. A few, but not many.

I'm sure some people may run 30w oil............why not?

a) Because the FHI engineers specified bearing clearances throughout the engine based on a particular CPS rating, and changing the base viscosity of an oil to something higher is going to change the volume of primary-fed bearings, and volume & pressure of secondary-fed devices (like hydraulic lifters). This may not be a Good Idea.

B) Because thicker oil requires greater horsepower to move. This is not a trivial point. It can require several more HP to move SAE 30 oil through a system at a typical engine lubricating system volume than, say, SAE 10. This is thrown in that pot called "parasitic losses".

I have seen VW engines go 140k miles before tear down......owner only used 30w oil, same brand. All this and an engine with NO oil filter (that "rock screen" doesn't count as a filter).


Air-cooled engines have their own set of issues WRT oil. Foremost is oil volitility, IMO, another reason I'm a big fan of synthetically-produced lubricants.

Though the old VW is a durable design, it isn't a particulary efficient design (there, that'll spark some discussion!). (I used to do a LOT of VW work.) Witness the ability of them to run with no filtering of the lube oil. Well, lawnmower engines didn't have oil filters for a long time, either, but they do run. For a while. And then they're used up. Just like the VW. By today's standards, 140k is not a lot of miles on an engine -- I know most people here would howl if they had to rebuild their Subaru engine at a mere 140k! The VW engine was designed to last as long as it needed to last, just like a lawnmower engine, and if you want to, you can make either last quite a bit longer. But that's a triumph of maintenance over engineering.

Now, I'm not saying 20w-50 is THE answer to anything; but it's well suited to high mileage engines that tend to leak and have some blow-by.

Yup, that's why I said it may make economic sense to run 20W50. I personally prefer to start with an engine that doesn't require this patch, and then maintain it in such a state that it may never need it.

I have always had oil drain out when changing the filter...........I have always used NAPA and Wix filters...........still had lifter noise.

It didn't go away for me until I replaced the lash adjusters with OEM units...........Yes, all four of them.

That was my experience as well. However, if I'd gotten the engine with about 140k fewer miles on it, and kept the oil clean, I doubt that I'd have "only" gotten 160k miles ouf of those lifters ;)

Too busy pre-loading the lifters.............I have stock valve covers with the tops cut out . . .

Oh, you're one of "those" (g,d&r!).
The Corvair uses exactly the same lifter and rocker arm design that the SBC does -- the parts are interchangeable, only the pushrod is different, the 'vair's being a shorter length. But on all the SBCs and 'vairs I've had to work with, I've never adusted the valves with it running. There's simply no need. The idea is to center the hydraulic lifters' plungers in the center of their travel, and you can easily do this with the engine off, by hand rotating the engine to the base circle of the cam lobe, loosen the adjuster to get the least amount of lash discernable, then preload to spec (3/4, 1, 1.5, whatever). No mess, and I don't have to swap the covers, nor to I have to worry that the lifter will not bleed down fast enough when preloading and the valve smack a piston -- I've seen it done by an inexperienced "mechanic". Plus, then engine fires up quiet and smooth, no need to have to listen to all that racket while you go around adjusting them.

Well, whatever works. Certainly, you can adjust SBC hydraulic lifters with the engine running. It's completely unnecessary, but it's the sort of procedure that's ingrained in the culture, so that's that. I've even seen one repair manual describe how to do it. Sheesh.

Of course, this "adjustment" is not necessary at all -- Chev is the only one that I can think of that allowed "adjustment" of automatic lash adjusters. Buick, Cad., Pontiac, Olds, and Ford all have fixed-adjustment systems, and until the rocker parts become so worn as to be well out of bearing material, they work fine -- and by the time you have lifter noise on those designs, you've got other problems that are larger!

I don't consider myself to be "educated", but I do know a little about a few things.........
Experience has been a tough teacher.............."there are no free scholarships to the school of experience".......................:D


Yea, Verily, Brother!
Unfortunately, we now live in an age where disinformation is disseminated as fast as information, and the real skill lay in determining which is which.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users