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Seal Removal Method?


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30 replies to this topic

#1 blitz

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 11:01 AM

I searched, but not much luck.

Could someone refresh me on the easiest way to remove the cam/ crank seals?

Just dig 'em out?

#2 BigMattyD

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 11:18 AM

I think the best way would be to drill 2 small holes in the face of the seal, screw in a couple of screws, and pull on the screws.


When I changed my seals, I didn't have a drill small enough to fit in the space available, so I dug mine out with a small, precision flathead screwdriver. I tore the seal to hell, and I used some penetrating oil to help slide the seals out.

It took about 10 or 15 minutes of patient digging and prying for each seal.

Just be careful not to mar the sealing surfaces on the block or shafts.

Matt

#3 blitz

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 11:35 AM

Thanks Matty. Ironically, just before posting this question I decided that drilling some holes would be a great thing, then proceeded to have the drill bit walk across the face of the seal, straight over to the rubber and plunge in, putting some horrific scratches on the cam surface. :banghead:

The problem is that a standard hand drill won't fit the allotted work space in order to get a straight-shot at the seal face.. A right-angle drill motor would work.

So now I'm trying to cool my fuming while polishing the scratches gingerly with crocus cloth. I may have F*-ed it up.



Did you dig between the aluminum and the seal (outside), or between the cam and the seal (inside)?

#4 frag

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 11:42 AM

What I did: I used a medium size flat blade screwdriver. If you have a cheap one, bend the last inch a few degrees to one side. Push the blade inside the seal (thru the soft rubber lip) with the bend going away from the shaft. Like BigMattyD said, try not to scratch the shafts: that's where the bend in the driver helps. Then I pushed down on the handle till the part of the blade near the handle rested on the block and the tip of the blade came in contact with the inside of the top metal part of the seal. I pushed a little more and the seal began to come out.
I was at a loss on how to remove the seals till a mech at the dealer showed me how. What I just described.

#5 cookie

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 12:18 PM

a special seal removal screwdriver. I made one once for an application where I bent the tip radically for leverage and rounded and polished the back and edges so it was less likely to scratch the surface.
After you make it it is handy for other things too.

#6 Olnick

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 12:40 PM

Frag--I like your suggestion of the bent screwdriver. Seems like the leverage gained would be perfect for seal removal. But am a little confused when you say " . . . till the part of the blade near the handle rested on the block . . ."

What block? Engine block? Part of the blade near the handle? Could you clarify a little. If I screw up my courage real tight I may stumble into this job this summer! Thanx.

#7 frag

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 12:52 PM

Frag--I like your suggestion of the bent screwdriver. Seems like the leverage gained would be perfect for seal removal. But am a little confused when you say " . . . till the part of the blade near the handle rested on the block . . ."

What block? Engine block? Part of the blade near the handle? Could you clarify a little. If I screw up my courage real tight I may stumble into this job this summer! Thanx.


Well maybe my english does'nt serve me well here, but here goes. I mean if you push down on the handle the driver's shaft will contact the part of the block just next to the seal and this will serve as a fulcrum point. At the same time the bent flat tip of the driver's shaft will begin to put pressure on the inside of the metal part of the seal at the top. Of course, you can go around the crank of cam shaft doing this and get the seal out progressively. Although I dont remember having had to use more than the top position to get the seal out. Once the seal begins to move the rest is easy. The important part is, at the same time, to push the driver's shaft away from the crank or cam shaft.
Also, Cookies advice on polishing any part of the driver that could marr or scratch the shafts seems like a very good idea to me. Going at it very slowly and carefully is, I think, the golden rule here..
I hope this is clearer.
Take care.

#8 cookie

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 12:57 PM

this is pretty much a standard sel removal method for many types. In some cases it is also possible to buy seal removers but in limited space I am not sure they would work well.
An oxy acetelene torch was often used to heat the tip of a screwdriver to bend it. They will often break if you try to bend without heating. In one case I also welded a pice of steel to the screwdriver to function as a fulcrum, but I think that would be overkill here.

#9 Olnick

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 01:05 PM

Thanks Frag and Cookie, I think I get the drift!

#10 blitz

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 01:44 PM

Thanks everyone. I got the remaining two seals out by using a sturdy little screwdriver of the exact proportions to carefully "cold-chisel" the seal's frame completely through at one side (effectively turning it into a split washer), pushed down the imbedded screwdriver and voila! The seal popped out. I just hope the first one I messed up with the drill doesn't
leak. :confused:

Next question: Does the oil pump have to be removed to replace the O-ring? (I haven't the slightest idea where the O-ring is located). The factory manual is REALLY lousy. The diagrams appear to be about as dis-jointed as if they'd been drawn by someone who'd been on a week-long absynthe binge, just prior to severing their own ear.

#11 frag

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 02:00 PM

Thanks everyone. I got the remaining two seals out by using a sturdy little screwdriver of the exact proportions to carefully "cold-chisel" the seal's frame completely through at one side (effectively turning it into a split washer), pushed down the imbedded screwdriver and voila! The seal popped out. I just hope the first one I messed up with the drill doesn't
leak. :confused:
.
Next question: Does the oil pump have to be removed to replace the O-ring? (I haven't the slightest idea where the O-ring is located). The factory manual is REALLY lousy. The diagrams appear to be about as dis-jointed as if they'd been drawn by someone who'd been on a week-long absynthe binge, just prior to severing their own ear.


Yes, it's just behind the oil pump.

#12 blitz

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 03:52 PM

Thanks Frag! One more question: Anti-sieze or threadlocker upon re-installation of the cam gear bolts, or just dry?


Also, Matty,

To clarify: I messed up the first seal removal on my own :o using the drill BEFORE you mentioned it, not because of it.

I think the "drill & screw" method is a good one, but it requires a straight-in shot with the drill in order to work properly.


Everyone: I sincerely appreciate the help. I'm having a hard time believing that I used to be an ASE-certified mechanic (28 yrs. ago), but with age, comes this peculiar type of befuddlement and feeble mindedness. :D

#13 frag

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 04:06 PM

Anti-sieze or threadlocker upon re-installation of the cam gear bolts, or just dry?


Never heard of the cam gears coming loose. I retorqued them dry. But I dont think a light application off Locktite (blue?) would harm anything. They are not subject to rust or oxydation either so I dont see the necessity of using anti-seize grease.
Just my opinion.

#14 SevenSisters

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 06:21 PM

STOP!

Don't grind anything off the cam shaft. See where the gouges are and if you can, shim the seal out to miss it. Otherwise, fill in the gouges with some epoxy.
Don't may an egg shaped cam. It can only leak.

#15 blitz

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 07:39 PM

STOP!

Don't grind anything off the cam shaft. See where the gouges are and if you can, shim the seal out to miss it. Otherwise, fill in the gouges with some epoxy.
Don't may an egg shaped cam. It can only leak.


Too late, LOL. I just finished putting the entire car back together. All I gotta do is try to pour the old coolant back in through a coffee filter and I'll be able tp start it up.

I didn't do any grinding, but rather used an extremely fine emery paper to lightly take the sharp ridges off the scratches. Actually I'm kinda hoping the seal misses the scratches as it is, but I just wanted to prevent nicking the seal on the sharp spots while installing it. If it leaks, I'm gonna Xtremely pissed. :banghead:

#16 BigMattyD

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 08:36 PM

Yeah, the "drill and screw" method doesn't work unless you have a drill that will fit into cramped quarters. I almost did the same thing and tried to fit my normal-sized drill into the engine compartment at an angle to the seal face, but stopped before I did any damage.


The bent screwdriver routine sounds the best to me, but I don't have any bent screwdrivers, or any easy way to do it. I don't even have a vise. I really could use a proper workshop.

Matt

P.S. Congrats on finishing the seals. Once you start, you can't go back and undo the damage you cause, so I guess you just have to keep going.

P.P.S. I hope the line about reusing the old coolant is a joke... It's not too expensive or difficult to put fresh coolant in, unless you recently cleaned the system...

#17 blitz

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 09:06 PM

I hope the line about reusing the old coolant is a joke... It's not too expensive or difficult to put fresh coolant in, unless you recently cleaned the system...

Actually I just bought the car used about 2 months ago, but the coolant looks fresh, and upon draining the system and looking inside the radiator, I was blown away by the fact that there is ZERO scale at the top of the tubes. Spotless. I can't argue with success like that so I thought it prudent to put it back as it was. So I'm not doing it to be a cheap rump roast. ;)

#18 BigMattyD

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 05:45 AM

I don't know how old my coolant was at the time I bought my car, but I never changed it or had any coolant loss, so I knew it was a few years old.


I changed my water pump and radiator hoses at the time of the seals and timing belt, and I was surprised that there was no gunk or scale in the system.

I refilled the system with distilled H20 and new antifreeze. I figure it will last me another few years.

Make sure after you refill the system to properly purge the air out of the system.


Matt D

#19 cookie

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 10:16 AM

polish crankshafts with. If used properly in a long strip and rotated it can make a very good surface. Even if the cam seal does leak there are several options such as filling, spacing, or going to a bearing house and finding a seal with double or triple lips. Most seals and bearings are standard size items and there are often several options if you know what is available.

#20 KStretch55

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 10:32 AM

A "Speedi-sleeve" is another option.

#21 cookie

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 10:39 AM

but the only experience I have had with them was on bus hub surfaces and they were fairly hard to install there. I would imagine you would have to remove the cam wouldn't you, in such a limited space? I admit to screwing up a few speedy sleves duing installation. I may have created a couple of new English words on one occasion.

#22 blitz

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 12:12 PM

Well, I let the loctite on the crank bolt and the permatex on the oil pump set up overnight, then fired it up this morning and chased all the air out.

All seems well ...no gushing of oil out of the cam seal. All that remains to be seen is whether I develop any quantity of leakage over time.

I hold myself to a high standard of work quality, it's really painful to do something as stupid as I did. Thanks to everyone for their help.

Cookie, as a contingency, where could I look to find a 3-lip seal for this particular application?

#23 cookie

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 12:26 PM

Over her there are large warehouse wholesale stores that stock bearings and seals for shipment all over the country. I used to bring a seal or bearing in and match it up.
The last one I used was called Christie Engineering in Emeryville CA. I just searched on the web and there were several bearing houses that came up. You would need the exact dimensions of the seal if you ordered it on the web. Hopefully there is a multilip application for something that size.

#24 cookie

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 12:36 PM

I just called directory service for an address for Christie and they have moved or closed.

#25 blitz

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 04:40 PM

Thanks Cookie, I'll check into it further. I had no idea such a thing even exsisted.




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