Stormy Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Hi Everyone, I have a 2002 Legacy GT with just over 60K. Here's what I'm getting. After the car has warmed up, the idle will drop to about 250-300 rpm. When I drive it around for a while and come to a stop, it will do one of two things... It will idle at about 750-800 rpm and then drop down to 250-300 rpm or it will drop bwlow 250 rpm or stall all together. The Check engine light has come on and the dealer has had the car in the shop while the CEL was on. The dealer has replaced two Idle Air Control Valve's and still doing the same thing. Any help on this would be great! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muse Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Hey, I can sympathize. While I didn't experience any CEL, I had a similar experience. Read this thread: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=33547 and also search under rough idle and stalling. Hope this helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 Hey, I can sympathize. While I didn't experience any CEL, I had a similar experience. Read this thread: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=33547 and also search under rough idle and stalling. Hope this helps! Thanks for the reply! The car is at the dealer right now. They have replaced the O2 sensor and the air idle controller. They said the CEL was giving them 3 errors... O2, AIC and cat converter errors. Personally, I don't see how the converters could be causing this. One other thing I noticed this morning while taking the car to the dealer... If I am rolling with my foot on the clutch at about 5 MPH, the RPM's stay at about 750 RPM. It's when the car comes to a stop is when this happenes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99obw Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Personally, I don't see how the converters could be causing this. It may be related to the O2 sensor troubles you're having, as the cat is checked by the O2 sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 It may be related to the O2 sensor troubles you're having, as the cat is checked by the O2 sensor. Ahh... Good point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobdude Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 also if you car wa running rich, it could have overheated the cats and plugged them up. you would notice a lack of power. also try letting it run in first gear without the clutch pedal and see where it idles If you completely diengage the tranny, does it still idle low (fully press the clutch) Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muse Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Let us know the outcome! I'm always curious for the end result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted April 12, 2005 Author Share Posted April 12, 2005 Replacing the cats did not work. The SA said he is stumpped. They have 2 techs looking at it now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99obw Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 Maybe they should look at the wiring between the IAC and the ECU. One way to check an IAC is to create a large vacuum leak with the engine idling. The ECU should adjust the leak out. The engine will rev at first then settle back down to where it should be. I know that to be true on MAP based systems at least, not sure on MAF based. I read that subaru has done some MAP based systems lately so I'm not sure what your car has. They should also be able to observe the IAC control signals with a scope when it does its thing. Most likely it's not the IAC. The first thing I would do if I had a nice scan tool like they do is watch the sensor voltages when the car idles normally and idles low. Have they done that? I think that might tell them where to start looking. They never should have replaced the cat$ without seeing if the cat code was the result of a bad O2 sensor first IMHO. It doesn't surprise me that it didn't fix it. It sounds more like an intermittent electrical problem. They should also have the proper pressure gauge to test if a cat is plugged or not. These guys sound like parts changers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted April 15, 2005 Author Share Posted April 15, 2005 A quick update. I test drove the car with the head tech and he said everthing seems normal. When I got home last night, CEL came on. This morning they said that it has a bad tranny sensor of some sort (don't remember exactly what he said). The car is still stalling and idling low. The saga continues.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted April 23, 2005 Author Share Posted April 23, 2005 CEL is on yet again. The current error code is P0420. The dealer said they replaced the converters but after looking under the car, i saw that they didn't. Also, after they said they fixed it, they slapped an inspection sticker on it that they owed me. My state does OBDII testing. My guess is that they cleared the error and then tested it. As far as the sticker goes, it that legal what they did? My guess is not at all. I'm getting screwed here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted May 18, 2005 Author Share Posted May 18, 2005 Latest update... I did some driving test and heres what I have. If I'm driving at about 45mph, put the clutch in and leave it in gear and come to a stop, the RPM's go down to 650~ and stay there (or if I wait about 10 seconds rpm's will drop). If I put the shifter in neutral when stopped, the RPM's will drop down to 350~ and the car will struggle to stay running. Things that I have done: Fuel filter, air filter, PCV valve, plugs, wires, cleaned the TB, AIC, cats, Sea Foam cleaning with very little positive affect. What is strange is that it almost always happenes in neutral, and rarely happenes when I come to a stop in gear. One more thing... When I warm the car up in the morning in neutral, it goes through it's normal higher RPM cycle. As the engine gets warmer, the RPM's slowly drop down to the 350~ mark. Would faulty neutral position switch have anything at all to do with this??? One other thing... On my ride home from work the other nihgt I tried a few more things. 1. If I take the car out of any gear while moving and put it in neutral, the RPM's drop. If I shift back into gear (any gear for that matter) The RPM's go back to normal. 2. This is not the case when I'm stopped. So as long as I'm moving above a rolling speed (2-3 MPH) the RPM's will return to ~650 when put back into any gear. When stopped, even in gear, the RPM's drop to ~350 I'm stumped... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcspeer Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Has anyone checked the throttle position sensor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted May 19, 2005 Author Share Posted May 19, 2005 I talked to the parts department of another dealer and they said the TPS hardly ever fails... The only thing I've done with the TPS is clean the contacts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted May 19, 2005 Author Share Posted May 19, 2005 My thoughts are that it's related with movement and shifter position... thats why I'm asking about the NPS. If its not, I'm thinking ECU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02subyL Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 I've got what seems to be a similar problem with my 02 legacy wagon (automatic) I changed the fuel filter, air filter, plugs, wires, and right now its at a garage, but the mechanic there ran the diagnostics but no sucess on what the problem is. I'm looked at Muse's thread and am wondering if reprogramming the ECM solved the problem. I'll post if we find anything new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 Not sure if this issue is related but if I drive with cruse control on and pop it out of gear, the rpm's fly up until I shut it off. My wifes OBW doesn't do that. It will shut off when popped out of gear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted June 3, 2005 Author Share Posted June 3, 2005 Well, the dealer where I purchased the car has turned thier back on me. The service manager even said that they have a morral oblegation to fix this problem. Now they are saying without a CEL, there's nothing we can do. I asked if they could connect the subaru monitor and actually trouble shoot the problem. They said "we're not going to do that". I have papers that say they confirmed there is a problem. Meanwhile, this thing is stalling about once a week and idles low when it's warmed up... My wifes 00' OBW shows none of these problems - ever! 120K problem free miles. On top of all the other things I have done and the dealer has done, I'm going to change the O2 sensor and next will be the Intake air temp and pressure sensor. If anyone has ANY ideas on what else I can do to target this problem, please speak up. Let the part swapping begin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muse Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Hmmm... so has the ECU been checked to see if it is bad? Have they reprogrammed the ECU? Why in the heck do they not want to troubleshoot it? I'd be giving a ring a ling to SOA about this issue. What you are going through is ridiculous! So sorry you have to go through this, let us know what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea#3 Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Well, the dealer where I purchased the car has turned thier back on me. The service manager even said that they have a morral oblegation to fix this problem. Now they are saying without a CEL, there's nothing we can do. I asked if they could connect the subaru monitor and actually trouble shoot the problem. They said "we're not going to do that". I have papers that say they confirmed there is a problem. Meanwhile, this thing is stalling about once a week and idles low when it's warmed up... My wifes 00' OBW shows none of these problems - ever! 120K problem free miles. On top of all the other things I have done and the dealer has done, I'm going to change the O2 sensor and next will be the Intake air temp and pressure sensor. If anyone has ANY ideas on what else I can do to target this problem, please speak up. The the part swapping begin Try replacing the front A/F sensor (02 Sensor) first. It is situated just below and back of the right front inner c/v joint They are notorious for lying to the ECM and not throwing a code , as well as causing other codes to be triggered Whether this is your problem it's tough to tell You can tell if the front A/F sensor is "Lying" if you have a scan tool and you monitor the front a/f sensor and the rear 02 sensor, which your dealer should be able to do !!! SEA#3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Okay, this may be a long shot, but I suppose you are ready to try anything. The ignition "coil" that lives on top of the intake manifold and the "igniter" that lives on the firewall, right in the middle. These have not yet been replaced. Both are easy to do. Disconnect the negative battery terminal first. These components are heat sensivitve. The engine room gets hot with the car standing still, on the move it cools slighty due to the air flowing through it. Of course, both of these should also present problems further up the rev range, like occasional hesitation, but it would be worth replacing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted June 3, 2005 Author Share Posted June 3, 2005 Hmmm... so has the ECU been checked to see if it is bad? Have they reprogrammed the ECU? Why in the heck do they not want to troubleshoot it? I'd be giving a ring a ling to SOA about this issue. What you are going through is ridiculous! So sorry you have to go through this, let us know what happens. The ECU has not been replaced but has been reprogrammed (so they say). I did locate a used ECU at a salvage yard in MA for $100. I didn't know if there was more than one version for 2002. Didn't want to create more problems for myself. www.car-part.com only lists one but they aren't always correct. What sucks is the dealer has no legal obligation to fix this. There is no lemon law in NH for used cars past their factory warrenty. You buy it, you own it... simple as that. At this point the dealer wants to put as much distance between them and this problem as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted June 3, 2005 Author Share Posted June 3, 2005 Try replacing the front A/F sensor (02 Sensor) first. It is situated just below and back of the right front inner c/v jointThey are notorious for lying to the ECM and not throwing a code , as well as causing other codes to be triggered Whether this is your problem it's tough to tell You can tell if the front A/F sensor is "Lying" if you have a scan tool and you monitor the front a/f sensor and the rear 02 sensor, which your dealer should be able to do !!! SEA#3 Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Plus it's the least expensive I was also thinking about doing that grounding mod to see if that will help. By the sounds of it, I defiantly couldn't hurt! I would have to go to a different dealer to have the scan tool hooked up at $79/hour. For the same price I can swap out the O2 sensor and eliminate that as a cause. Good input though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted June 3, 2005 Author Share Posted June 3, 2005 Okay, this may be a long shot, but I suppose you are ready to try anything. The ignition "coil" that lives on top of the intake manifold and the "igniter" that lives on the firewall, right in the middle. These have not yet been replaced. Both are easy to do. Disconnect the negative battery terminal first. These components are heat sensivitve. The engine room gets hot with the car standing still, on the move it cools slighty due to the air flowing through it. Of course, both of these should also present problems further up the rev range, like occasional hesitation, but it would be worth replacing them. I'm a little confused... In the service manual it looks like the coil and ignitor are the same. I don't see the ignitor against the firewall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted June 11, 2005 Author Share Posted June 11, 2005 A new O2 sensor didn't fix the problem... I think the way I should go is to get some diagnostic software. Any sugestions? This looks prety good. Has anyone else tried it? http://www.obdscan.net/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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