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steering rack question


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22 replies to this topic

#1 JWX

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 01:45 PM

would it be ok to run the rack with out fluid? my boot is leaking (I messed up a seal in teh rack I'm guessing) and I don't have time to replace the rack yet so I'm just going to pull the pump and route the lines together, get a belt that will run the alt, wp, and teh crank for now (it will prolly be a week till I get a chance to replace it)

#2 Qman

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 01:58 PM

In the amount of time you have spent on the comp today you probably could have replaced the rack. It will be harder to steer than a non-power stering unit. The fluid also lubricates the rack. Without it can cause nothing but problems.

#3 JWX

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 04:44 PM

I spent 30 mins on here. and I know about it being harder, it wasn't that hard to figure out. I appreciate the concern but, I should be strong enough to handle it.









(WTF is with teh hostility on the board lately? seems as tho if you aren't in/from the PNW then you're screwed)

#4 XSNRG

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 05:09 PM

I don't know but it would probably be ok for a week, it's not like something that's spinning at high RPM. Are you going to rebuild or just get a complete used rack? If so, it probably doesn't matter if it's damaged. I've drove leaking racks that weren't working but never rebuilt one, always just replaced them with a used unit, always worked out good. I just check to make sure there is no fluid in the boots.

#5 Turbone

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 05:48 PM

It doesnt matter where you come from. When you know better to ask such a lame question about running a PS rack without fluid, its just common sense that it will ruin the rack. Once you remove the lines, every time you turn the wheel more fluid gets pumped out of the rack. But hey, its your car :rolleyes:

#6 Qman

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 06:34 PM

I spent 30 mins on here. and I know about it being harder, it wasn't that hard to figure out. I appreciate the concern but, I should be strong enough to handle it.









(WTF is with teh hostility on the board lately? seems as tho if you aren't in/from the PNW then you're screwed)


Sorry man, wasn't being sarcastic or mean or anything. I was just saying you could have been almost done with it. Sorry you took it that way. The job should only take about an hour to do.

Oh, I am sure you can handle it. But have you ever driven a car that the power steering has gone out on?

#7 baccaruda

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 06:40 PM

you'd have arms like a gorilla if you drove it that way! :lol:

it's so much harder to steer without fluid that it's unsafe for traffic.

#8 pyromanic

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:11 PM

In my ingorance I've always wondered why the steering is so much harder with a car with nonfunctional power steering, than a car with manual steering. I'm sure it's realy a simple matter mechanics, but I don't get it.

So why is that?

Pyro

No intent to hijack, just wondering is all.

#9 85Sub4WD

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 09:22 PM

In my ingorance I've always wondered why the steering is so much harder with a car with nonfunctional power steering, than a car with manual steering. I'm sure it's realy a simple matter mechanics, but I don't get it.

So why is that?

Pyro

very simple - it all boils down to gear reduction - the non-powered rack has ~11 turns lock-to-lock - the powered rack ~4 (using my memory of the '85 FSM) - both cover the same distance of movement of the wheels - so you have to put a LOT more force on the wheel to get it to turn, as you don't have the gear reduction in your favor - manual rack: more turns=less effort

To make it even more complicated, Subaru came out with a Variable Gear Ratio steering, which places the notches on the rack at different spaces apart to give the driver better control - I personally love it - except when parallel parking - I think all GL's with manual steering had it, and all DL's had a standard fixed-ratio steering rack

my reason for staying with the VGR steering is that it cannot start leaking PS fluid!!

I vote get your rack fixed ASAP - steering is not something to screw around with

#10 PoorManzImpreza

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 10:30 PM

so no one here has taken apart a power rack, have you? Here's a hint if you've got dexron in your boots your rack is leaking..the geared section of a PS rack is seperated from the hydraulic section so NO dexron(ps fluid) does NOT lubricate the gears in the rack or pinion it will only even get near those gears if the seals in the hydraulic section are shot..the rack and pinion require a nice heavy grease to lubricate them..so to answer your question yes you can run a PS rack like a manual rack rout the lines together and remove the PS pump (running it empty will screw it up FAST) and grease the rack... but hey that's more work than replacing the rack...;)

If it were me I'd get a parts rack get seal kits A and B for PS rack and reseal that rack, replace tie-rods (as you'll have to take 'em off to get the rack apart) get some whiteline rack bushings and replace that rack with a 'like new' rack..but that's just me...

#11 calebz

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 10:33 PM

I dorve my wagon for a year with a dry PS rack. Only time it was a pain in the ass was when I was parking in tight spots.. and even then it wasn't that hard. When putting it back together this last time, I replaced the rack with a used unit.. It sure is nice to have the PS back, but it wasn't that big of a deal to not have it.

#12 JWX

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 10:43 PM

I'm only going to put like 100 mile on it max. I've driven a car that lost its power steering before, it was hard but not hard enough to be "a problem in traffic" you kinda scrawny there cuda? ;) I'm going to throw the rack out of the 89 parts in it, and prolly send this one of to get it rebuilt with better stuff. planning upon putting steering rack bushings in with the 89s rack so I've got that covered






It doesnt matter where you come from. When you know better to ask such a lame question about running a PS rack without fluid, its just common sense that it will ruin the rack. Once you remove the lines, every time you turn the wheel more fluid gets pumped out of the rack. But hey, its your car :rolleyes:

Actually no, as I routed the lines together, and why would it ruin the rack to begin with? The fluid is there to provide hydraulic assist.

Sorry man, wasn't being sarcastic or mean or anything. I was just saying you could have been almost done with it. Sorry you took it that way. The job should only take about an hour to do.

ya I took it kinda harsh, I apologize for taking it farther.

#13 JWX

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 10:45 PM

very simple - it all boils down to gear reduction - the non-powered rack has ~11 turns lock-to-lock - the powered rack ~4 (using my memory of the '85 FSM) - both cover the same distance of movement of the wheels - so you have to put a LOT more force on the wheel to get it to turn, as you don't have the gear reduction in your favor - manual rack: more turns=less effort

To make it even more complicated, Subaru came out with a Variable Gear Ratio steering, which places the notches on the rack at different spaces apart to give the driver better control - I personally love it - except when parallel parking - I think all GL's with manual steering had it, and all DL's had a standard fixed-ratio steering rack

my reason for staying with the VGR steering is that it cannot start leaking PS fluid!!

I vote get your rack fixed ASAP - steering is not something to screw around with

more details I want one of these.

#14 Turbone

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Posted 08 May 2005 - 11:44 PM

You should try steering an XT6 when the Cybrid goes out :banghead:
Why would you go to all the trouble of doing the lines, when you could just swap the rack and havE it done?

#15 85Sub4WD

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 12:31 AM

more details I want one of these.

The variable ratio steering uses a standard (not power assisted) rack, with different pitch on the teeth on the rack at specific and different places, so when the pinion rides across it (turned by the steering wheel) it had less sensitivity in the middle of the range of motion than at the ends (closest to the locks) - meaning the amount you turn the steering wheel does not always affect the wheels in the same way - the specific number listed in the FSM is 30% change in ratio - reason being that it allowed for a more secure feel and precise control at speed, where steering can become very jumpy - I find that the system works very well - and when I occasionally have to drive power-assisted cars, I always feel like I am overcompensating as the center area of the wheel is so sensitive - the VGR steering box is also nice for U-turns, and whenever you need to go to the lock to make a tight turn - it is just hard when parallel parking as you HAVE to drag the tires to turn the wheel as the car is not moving

the biggest advantage I see to the system is that it is virtually maitenence-free, as there is no power-steering pump to fail, and racks generally don't wear out - it does require more effort than a power-assisted system, but steering effort is still not that great overall - I am a light person and have no problems with it - I do not know specifically which cars had it - I know mine does (I have the original invoice) - I know 1985 Subaru GL's with a manual steering box had it, but I do not know what other cars did - I think DL's had the CGR (constant gear ratio - standard type) manual steering box - my 1985 buyer's guide is at home - it will be AT LEAST Wednesday before I have access to it

footnote - I have to tell most people that the car's steering is not power assisted - even after they drive it (my dad thought for a while it had power assist) because of how the steering works, it feels as though it has at least some power assist.

I do not know much about the XT6's cybrid system, but it looks very complicated (and expensive) to fix

#16 Turbone

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 01:34 AM

The only thing unique about the XT6 system (besides it being electric) is that you must use the Subaru fluid designed for it. And its a very simple set up. A electric motor getting a signal from a magnet on the steering column, turns the pump on and off. Thats it.
Well, that might be a little over simplified, but thats the jist of it.

#17 XSNRG

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 09:12 PM

My brushes went out on my -6, I drove it that way for 6 months, no problem...

#18 leadfootracin

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 09:22 PM

brushes are $$$$ for the xt 6, and use sub fluid in an xt 6

#19 baccaruda

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 01:36 AM

hehe. well the last time i drove a subaru with bad power steering, it was my friend Justin's car.. his car was a friggin basket case. He got that car stuck more times than i can keep track of, and that was usually immediately after it had been airborne. it wouldn't surprise me if his car was "exceptional" in the way its steering felt.


just for the record, to defend my injured masculinity :rolleyes: when I put the RX tranny in my wagon, I had to bench press it up there, wiggle it into the pilot bearing (that SUCKED) and then hold it in with one hand while i put the nuts on the bottom studs. I felt like Popeye after that, with the endorphins in my arms.. the next day I felt more like Olive Oyl though :lol:

#20 Turbone

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 02:10 AM

My brushes went out on my -6, I drove it that way for 6 months, no problem...


Once you get rolling its not to bad, its the first several feet pulling out of a parking spot that makes you grunt.

#21 MorganM

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 08:48 AM

EA82 GL wagon

Powersteering removed

Lines were not caped off at the rack.

No idea if it has any fluid left in it or not. I'd imagine there's some in it. Has not failed yet in about 4 years of use and abuse now. I have tooth pick arms and I can turn it just fine with 29"x8.5" tires.

This is my experience; take it as you will.

#22 JWX

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 09:29 AM

hehe. well the last time i drove a subaru with bad power steering, it was my friend Justin's car.. his car was a friggin basket case. He got that car stuck more times than i can keep track of, and that was usually immediately after it had been airborne. it wouldn't surprise me if his car was "exceptional" in the way its steering felt.

just for the record, to defend my injured masculinity :rolleyes: when I put the RX tranny in my wagon, I had to bench press it up there, wiggle it into the pilot bearing (that SUCKED) and then hold it in with one hand while i put the nuts on the bottom studs. I felt like Popeye after that, with the endorphins in my arms.. the next day I felt more like Olive Oyl though :lol:

I was just messing with ya, and that does sound like it sucks, I haven't lifted an RX tranny yet, but this XT6 one I have it a heavy MF'er

#23 gbianchi

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Posted 10 May 2005 - 12:13 PM

85 gl wagon pwr steering leaked, ran lines in loop, 45k later sold it still turning just fine. 86 gl wagon pwr steering leaked, let it leak dry, still turning just fine 38k later, power is nice but not needed. my 2cents take as you will

EA82 GL wagon

Powersteering removed

Lines were not caped off at the rack.

No idea if it has any fluid left in it or not. I'd imagine there's some in it. Has not failed yet in about 4 years of use and abuse now. I have tooth pick arms and I can turn it just fine with 29"x8.5" tires.

This is my experience; take it as you will.






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