Help! Removing Icthus (Fish Symbol) from my car?

[Mike_N_Austin]

blah,blah,blah,etc

 

interesting how we can go from talking how to remove a emblem to having a debate about religion.

 

Good point.

 

Evolution is a Religion.

[SuBrat84]

blah,blah,blah,etc

 

interesting how we can go from talking how to remove a emblem to having a debate about religion.

 

funny that's about what i was saying a few posts back..somehow got sucked in tho..i am so ashamed:banghead:

 

jess

[hooziewhatsit]

Good point.

 

Evolution is a Religion.

 

and yet when people talk about evolution it's alright, but when we talk about God, it's not alright :-\ How's that for tolerance?

 

I just don't see how something as complex as our nervous system, or eyes, or sense of smell, etc, evolved from some 'primordial goop'

 

(I also wouldn't mind continuing this in OT I don't see an issue discussing it as long as it doesn't turn into a flame war, but that could be just me)

[SuBrat84]

Ok ok, people, all i see here is a "religious" argument going on....since when did this site become that?? I mean, come on, the poor guy just wants to know how to get a stupid fish symbol off his car, i don't think he meant for people to start arguing in what belief is right or whatever. i don't mean to sound rude, but it shouldn't matter what you believe in, let people believe what they want, all be friends again, help eachother out with their Subaru problems, and just get over it. thank you.

 

 

~*~jess~*~

 

 

 

I second! I would, in fact, like to contribute my two mites to the discussion ... however.

 

I suggest we adjorn to the 'Off Topic' Forum, where this belongs.

 

BTW, glad the dental floss trick worked. What did you use to clean off the adhesive (other than fingernail).

 

 

 

 

 

*ahem* off topic would be a good idea.... or like i was saying in the beginning, let people believe what they want and leave it alone so we don't all end up hating eachother for a stupid reason.

 

-jessica-

[Mike_N_Austin]

*ahem* off topic would be a good idea.... or like i was saying in the beginning, let people believe what they want and leave it alone so we don't all end up hating eachother for a stupid reason.

 

-jessica-

 

I wouldn't call the topics involving the ultimate beginning and end as being stupid. I would say these types of topics are much more weighty than any other topic.

 

But I do think it would be stupid to hate someone because they did not believe what you believe. If you believe your position is the correct one...then why would someone else's "ignorance" cause you to feel hatred ?

 

What gets me (as pointed out be a previous poster) is that people only seem to get mad when the issue of Christianity is brought up. Then it becomes "Religion". But if I were to bring up humanism (i.e. Evolution) or a spiritualism like Hinduism people would be a lot less likely to become "offended" or "angry".

 

That is what I find very interesting.

[SuBrat84]

But I do think it would be stupid to hate someone because they did not believe what you believe. If you believe your position is the correct one...then why would someone else's "ignorance" cause you to feel hatred ?

 

 

 

that is what I mean by "something stupid", the fact that someone could feel hatred toward another for not believing the same thing they do. It doesn't even have to be hatred, the fact that one person could get mad at another person over the subject is stupid....am i being heard?? WHO CARES what your belief is, believe what you want. It shouldn't matter, what SHOULD matter is whether or not you or they are a good person.

 

jess

[Mike_N_Austin]

that is what I mean by "something stupid", the fact that someone could feel hatred toward another for not believing the same thing they do. It doesn't even have to be hatred, the fact that one person could get mad at another person over the subject is stupid....am i being heard?? WHO CARES what your belief is, believe what you want. It shouldn't matter, what SHOULD matter is whether or not you or they are a good person.

 

jess

 

I agree with you on the hatred thing. It is stupid to feel hatred toward someone else because they believe something that you do not believe. Although I must confess that I sometimes feel hatred towards the government authorities because Evolution is shoved down childrens throats in the public school system. Separation of Church and state apparantly only pertains to Theistic Religion and not Humanistic Religion. Evolution is a theory just as Creation is a theory. Neither can be proven by Science because the essence of Science is doing something in the here and now and observing the results. Since we were not here in the beginning and since we cannot go back in time then we are left ultimately with a measure of faith regardless of what we believe.

 

In respect to being good. I suppose that depends on ones definition of good.

 

Question: What defines a person as being a good person....is there a moral standard and if so....where did that standard come from ?

[SuBrat84]

Question: What defines a person as being a good person....is there a moral standard and if so....where did that standard come from ?

 

 

 

 

well now, if there are going to be questions asked, I suggest this be a new thread in off-topic, as it should have ben a looooong time ago. I'm sorry to the guy who started this thread and everyone else, i feel pretty bad. So i am making this my last post on this thread.

 

jessica

[Mike_N_Austin]

well now, if there are going to be questions asked, I suggest this be a new thread in off-topic, as it should have ben a looooong time ago. I'm sorry to the guy who started this thread and everyone else, i feel pretty bad. So i am making this my last post on this thread.

 

jessica

 

The funny thing is.....if nobody responded then this thread would have stopped growing a long time ago.

 

A lot of people are stating they are embarrassed and/or that this needs to be moved....but why then are they even posting.

 

Kind of like a guy yelling in a canyon and getting upset that he is getting a headache from all the noise (echo). He keeps yelling for the noise to stop and his headache keeps getting worse. And he just gets madder and madder...louder and louder....and headache gets worse and worse

 

But I am curious why you feel bad ?

[SuBrat84]

As far as the question of where all the species came from...there is only 1 logical way to answer that question....they were created

 

Created... instantaniously as if by magic? or through a grueling process of evolution? Is not evidence enough that all living things begin mutating when put under undo stress in their environment? A couple of good examples would be a type of amphibian that when there is no other of it's species of the opposite sex around to mate with, will actually mutate and change sex or become A-sexual and reproduce anyway? or the cannabis plant when put under too much stress mutates and becomes hermaphroditic (a single plant with both male and female "parts" can pollenate itself and produce seed) to insure the survival of it's species? You can't believe we were created, as with everything else in the universe, as a more primitive form than we are currently.. with the ability to mutate and adapt to the most adverse of conditions.. thus evolution? Why is it so hard to believe that in the begining we were created to be able to evolve? P.S. Natural Selection is Evolution. I'm sorry if this offends anyone. It is indeed to just my opinion.. as most of life is entirely based on opinions.. but it just seems like the most logical explanation to me. I'm sorry I can't believe that we were all created just the way we are and are always going to be this way. There is too much evidence that human beings change.. there is too many different "types" of humans on this planet. We change to our surroundings.. Africans are black because of thousands of years of evolution in the sun.. Europeans are white because there is no damn sun up there.. Asians are yellow because .. well.. wait.. those are the simpsons.. My point is.. there is too much human diversity based on the environment we live in not to believe in evolution. So there's my 2 dollars. Cheers. Enjoy your debate, I'm done. -Eli-

[99obw]

I feel I must clear something up.

 

The scientific definition of evolution reads something like:

 

"Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations."*

 

Based on this definition, the evolution debate is totally pointless, because it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this process occurs. Drug resistant viruses are a good example. There is a very good reason that the vast majority of scientists "believe in" evolution, i.e. the data is overwhelming. Of course dictionaries may have a different definition, but I take issue with their definitions of many things that they know little about.

 

The notion that life formed spontaneously from some 'primordial goop' is more acurately referred to as abiogenesis. I will not argue abiogenesis because frankly I have no idea.

 

I won't take sides on the evolution/creation debate, other than to say that if we were created, evolution was the mechanism. To me denying evolution in this day and age only tarnishes one's credibility.

 

Thank you, carry on.

 

*http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

[SuBrat84]

..."Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations."*...

 

 

...The notion that life formed spontaneously from some 'primordial goop' is more acurately referred to as abiogenesis. I will not argue abiogenesis because frankly I have no idea....

 

...I won't take sides on the evolution/creation debate, other than to say that if we were created, evolution was the mechanism. To me denying evolution in this day and age only tarnishes one's credibility....

 

Ditto and THANK YOU!

[Mike_N_Austin]

Created... instantaniously as if by magic? or through a grueling process of evolution? Is not evidence enough that all living things begin mutating when put under undo stress in their environment? A couple of good examples would be a type of amphibian that when there is no other of it's species of the opposite sex around to mate with, will actually mutate and change sex or become A-sexual and reproduce anyway? or the cannabis plant when put under too much stress mutates and becomes hermaphroditic (a single plant with both male and female "parts" can pollenate itself and produce seed) to insure the survival of it's species? You can't believe we were created, as with everything else in the universe, as a more primitive form than we are currently.. with the ability to mutate and adapt to the most adverse of conditions.. thus evolution? Why is it so hard to believe that in the begining we were created to be able to evolve? P.S. Natural Selection is Evolution. I'm sorry if this offends anyone. It is indeed to just my opinion.. as most of life is entirely based on opinions.. but it just seems like the most logical explanation to me. I'm sorry I can't believe that we were all created just the way we are and are always going to be this way. There is too much evidence that human beings change.. there is too many different "types" of humans on this planet. We change to our surroundings.. Africans are black because of thousands of years of evolution in the sun.. Europeans are white because there is no damn sun up there.. Asians are yellow because .. well.. wait.. those are the simpsons.. My point is.. there is too much human diversity based on the environment we live in not to believe in evolution. So there's my 2 dollars. Cheers. Enjoy your debate, I'm done. -Eli-

 

I'm sorry but natural selection is not evolution. Your comment does not offend me because it is wrong Different levels of skin pigment are a far cry from a new species. Blacks and whites are the same species with different genetic traits.

The Galápagos finches provide an excellent example of this process. Among the birds that ended up in arid environments, the ones with beaks better suited for eating cactus got more food. As a result, they were in better condition to mate. Similarly, those with beak shapes that were better suited to getting nectar from flowers or eating hard seeds in other environments were at an advantage there. In a very real sense, nature selected the best adapted varieties to survive and to reproduce. This process has come to be known as natural selection.

We do not end up with a new bird species following this process. We end up with Galápagos finches with longer beaks. And these long beaked Galápagos finches can still mate with short beaked Galápagos finches.

[Mike_N_Austin]

I feel I must clear something up.

 

The scientific definition of evolution reads something like:

 

"Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations."*

 

Based on this definition, the evolution debate is totally pointless, because it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this process occurs. Drug resistant viruses are a good example. There is a very good reason that the vast majority of scientists "believe in" evolution, i.e. the data is overwhelming. Of course dictionaries may have a different definition, but I take issue with their definitions of many things that they know little about.

 

The notion that life formed spontaneously from some 'primordial goop' is more acurately referred to as abiogenesis. I will not argue abiogenesis because frankly I have no idea.

 

I won't take sides on the evolution/creation debate, other than to say that if we were created, evolution was the mechanism. To me denying evolution in this day and age only tarnishes one's credibility.

 

Thank you, carry on.

 

*http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

 

OK...all you have done is taken the term and given it a new meaning.

 

Specifically, you have taken the term EVOLUTION and applied a definition that does not match the context of the debate.

 

I would also make the point that the majority of the population views the definition differently than you have presented it. When debates involving the term EVOLUTION arise they are along the context of what you have now defined as abiogenesis.

 

If you want to call it Abiogenesis then fine. Replace all instances of the term EVOLUTION and replace it with Abiogenesis.

 

Abiogenesis is taught in public schools because man and ape are not heritable changes in a population.

[Mike_N_Austin]

 

I won't take sides on the evolution/creation debate, other than to say that if we were created, evolution was the mechanism. To me denying evolution in this day and age only tarnishes one's credibility.

 

Thank you, carry on.

 

*http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

 

Yes...denying Evolution as you have defined it would tarnish one's credibility.

 

I don't deny Natural Selection....

 

I do deny Abiogenesis....and I use the term Evolution to describe this process....as does the majority of the public that I have come into contact with.

[Mike_N_Austin]

Need to apply a little logic here.

 

If Evolution is only a change in traits within an existing species...then how did the species begin...what was the starting point. Regardless of the height or skin color of the first man....how did he come to be. This argument/position requires Creation.

 

If Evolution is the devopment of continually higher evolved species with a common ancestor (primordial soup)....then where did the primordial soup come from ?

 

The Universe exists and is real. Every rational person must admit this point. If it did not exist, we would not be here to talk about it. So the question arises, “How did the Universe get here?” Did it create itself? If it did not create itself, it must have had a cause.

Let’s look at the law of cause and effect. As far as science knows, natural laws have no exceptions. This is definitely true of the law of cause and effect, which is the most universal and most certain of all laws. Simply put, the law of cause and effect states that every material effect must have an adequate cause that existed before the effect.

 

Material effects without adequate causes do not exist. Also, causes never occur after the effect. In addition, the effect never is greater than the cause. That is why scientists say that every material effect must have an adequate cause. The river did not turn muddy because the frog jumped in; the book did not fall off the table because the fly landed on it. These are not adequate causes. For whatever effects we see, we must present adequate causes.

 

Five-year-olds are wonderful at using the law of cause and effect. We can picture a small child asking: “Mommy, where do peaches come from.” His mother says that they come from peach trees. Then the child asks where the trees come from, and his mother explains that they come from peaches. You can see the cycle. Eventually the child wants to know how the first peach tree got here. He can see very well that it must have had a cause, and he wants to know what that cause was.

 

One thing is for sure: the Universe did not create itself! We know this for a scientific fact, because matter cannot create matter. If we take a rock that weighs 1 pound and do 50,000 experiments on it, we never will be able to produce more than 1 pound of rock. So, whatever caused the Universe could not have been material.

 

FROM NOTHING COMES NOTHING

I know that it is insulting to your intelligence to have to include this paragraph, but some people today are saying that the Universe was created from nothing. However, if there ever had been a time when absolutely nothing existed, then there would be nothing now, because it always is true that nothing produces nothing. If something exists now, then something always has existed.

[Sweet82]

WoW!

 

I'm beginning to think NorthWolf should have just left the Damn fish on....

[Mike_N_Austin]

Created... instantaniously as if by magic? or through a grueling process of evolution? Is not evidence enough that all living things begin mutating when put under undo stress in their environment? A couple of good examples would be a type of amphibian that when there is no other of it's species of the opposite sex around to mate with, will actually mutate and change sex or become A-sexual and reproduce anyway? or the cannabis plant when put under too much stress mutates and becomes hermaphroditic (a single plant with both male and female "parts" can pollenate itself and produce seed) to insure the survival of it's species? You can't believe we were created, as with everything else in the universe, as a more primitive form than we are currently.. with the ability to mutate and adapt to the most adverse of conditions.. thus evolution? Why is it so hard to believe that in the begining we were created to be able to evolve? P.S. Natural Selection is Evolution. I'm sorry if this offends anyone. It is indeed to just my opinion.. as most of life is entirely based on opinions.. but it just seems like the most logical explanation to me. I'm sorry I can't believe that we were all created just the way we are and are always going to be this way. There is too much evidence that human beings change.. there is too many different "types" of humans on this planet. We change to our surroundings.. Africans are black because of thousands of years of evolution in the sun.. Europeans are white because there is no damn sun up there.. Asians are yellow because .. well.. wait.. those are the simpsons.. My point is.. there is too much human diversity based on the environment we live in not to believe in evolution. So there's my 2 dollars. Cheers. Enjoy your debate, I'm done. -Eli-

 

I would like to see how you provide an answer that does not require "magic".

 

Where did the Universe come from ? What was the starting point.

 

Ultimately there is a starting point because you cannot evolve something from nothing. If there was ever a point in history where we had a situation that absolutely nothing existed...then we would have nothing today.

 

So at some point there has to be something that was not created or evolved. There had to be something that just was.

[Diesel]

The funny thing is.....if nobody responded then this thread would have stopped growing a long time ago.

.

[brus brother]

Ah, Ismism... this one I like. With various degrees and studies in Geology, Paleontology and Paleoecology and with a nod to the various religions of the world, I have to conclude that there is admittedly a starting point. Whether it is a multiheaded God or some old guy with a beard, I'd rather give in to the notion that there is some organizing "force" certainly bigger than myself that come judgement day will kick the rump roast of whomever is responsible at Subaru of America for the damned head gasket issues.

To hopefully put a peaceful punctuation to the unanswerable questions raised heretofore, I say Amen and Awomen.

So at some point there has to be something that was not created or evolved. There had to be something that just was.

[Hondasucks]

Here's my take on the whole thing. Being a Christian, I beleive that God created the Universe and everythign in it, like it says in the Bible. However. since God wanted us to be able to choose what we wanted to believe, He couldn't make it blatantly obvious that everything was just BAM created, since He wants us to believe in Him based on our faith, the fact we AREN'T totally sure He is there but we believe in Him anyway. God is also not bound by time, so what is given in the Bible as taking seven days, could have been thousands of years, since what is a day to God? We don't know! I meam, God could have made everything blatantly obvious, but where would the fun be in that? Kinda like Pandora's box ya know...