Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

No Crank No Start unless I jump from solenoid?


  • Please log in to reply
66 replies to this topic

#1 sregor13

sregor13

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 345 posts
  • Lander

Posted 12 June 2005 - 01:57 AM

I have a 90 Loyale 4x4 Turbo Wagon Automatic. When I turn the Key typically nothing happens. Sometimes you can hear a faint click. Occasionally, if I keep cranking it will fire up eventually. However it always starts if I take a SCrewdriver and touch the big red positive lead to the Spade on the Back of the starter. I think this is called jumping it from the Solenoid. Anyways, I changed the Starter and this did not correct the problem. Does anyone know what would cause this. I also changed the Ignition switch. I think it goes from the Switch to the Starter and then to the Coil. The only thing I see between the Starter and the coil is a little round Fuse type thingy on the inside of the car by the fusebox. It look almost like a Flasher. But anyways I know the Starter Switch wires go through that before they get to the starter. I have seriously tried alot of thing s and i need help troubleshooting. Thanks, Gabe

#2 nkx

nkx

    Rallycross Junkie

  • Members
  • 891 posts
  • Carlisle, PA

Posted 12 June 2005 - 02:19 AM

are you sure all your wires are clamped tight and free of corrosion? the positive terminal on my cavalier was pretty corroded, and it had a fit a couple of times, and wouldnt start right away.

i dont mean to be insulting, ive just learned that its always good to start with the basics when troubleshooting. :):drunk:

#3 Buddy

Buddy

    "Respect a man's car, a man respects you"

  • Members
  • 537 posts
  • Stockton, CA

Posted 12 June 2005 - 02:29 AM

are you sure that you don't need a new starter? it could be a very slim chance that your starter's gone bad. i mean its just my opinion because usually your problem happens with the "starter goes bad" thingy which means that you might have a bad starter. but your best bet is do some troubleshooting first before assuming that the starter went bad.

#4 sregor13

sregor13

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 345 posts
  • Lander

Posted 12 June 2005 - 03:09 AM

Thanks for the replies and I appreciate your input. Just to clarify.

As mentioned in the original post, I have changed the Starter once already. Doesnt mean its not the Starter but Odds are it is something else. Could be wrong about that one. Let me say this- When I jump it from the Solenoid it Starts 100% of the time. Becasue of this I do no believe it to be battery related. I believe the Problem exists either between the Starter and the Starter Switch or the Solenoid is the Problem. Or that another electrical problem exists that is somehow killing the Solenoid or causing some other whacky stuff. Or all of the above. Or there is an of chance that there is some kind of Ground issue going on.

"are you sure all your wires are clamped tight and free of corrosion?" I know what you mean, I have expereinced this before and it is not the problem with this car. It has no rust or corrosion and I am getting 14.4V 5 by 5. I need an expert in Subaru Starter systems to give me the lowdown on how it works. This is a scientific question.

#5 Cougar

Cougar

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 6,342 posts
  • Anchorage

Posted 12 June 2005 - 09:48 AM

Gabe,

The problem you are having is due to the solenoid wire, coming from the ignition switch, is not providing voltage to the solenoid to turn it on. When the solenoid turns on then voltage is provided to the starter motor through the large battery lead to turn the engine over. Since you replaced the starter this eliminates it as a possible problem and also the battery since you can jump start it.

There is a 'inhibitor' or 'neutral safety' switch (located in the shifter area) used in automatics that will keep the voltage from getting to the starter solenoid if the shift lever is not in Park or there is a problem with the switch. You may be able to bybass the switch if you try starting the car in neutral. If it starts then you need to check that switch. Sometimes the switch just needs to be adjusted to fix the problem but it may need to be replaced. My manual (for an '88) shows a black/yellow and black/white going to the switch. Yours may or may not be the same.

If that doesn't help with this then there is a problem either in the ignition switch itself or the solenoid wire from it to the solenoid. Since you have replaced the switch also then it is doubtful that is the problem. Using a trouble light, (You must purchase one if you don't have this already so you can track the voltage. They are under $10 dollars.) it will show you where voltage is getting to while you turn the key to start. The black/white wire runs to the solenoid from the safety switch. The black/yellow ties to the ignition switch.

#6 sregor13

sregor13

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 345 posts
  • Lander

Posted 12 June 2005 - 11:10 PM

Thanks Glen , now that you mention the Neutral Safety Switch. I am compelled to mention this 4EAT Recall for my Car. It covers the Swift Lever Arm on the Transmission that may be out ot Spec. This make the car think it is in reverse when it is actually in park. Or something to that effect. I have not actually been able to get the recall fixed yet. The nearest Sub Dealer is about 200 Miles Away. Do you think this may be significant? Thanks

#7 SuBrat84

SuBrat84

    What's REALLY going on???

  • Members
  • 1,520 posts
  • Tucson

Posted 12 June 2005 - 11:37 PM

Sounds like a Fusable Link to me. I think the one you need is green. Pull them out one by one and pull on the ends... if they come apart your fusable link is burned out and needs to be replaced. It's hard to tell by eye if they are burned because of the shielding they have.. it's best to take them out and "pull" test them.. good luck. (They are in a little plastic box kinda like a cigarette pack.. i Think it's near the battery.)

#8 Cougar

Cougar

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 6,342 posts
  • Anchorage

Posted 12 June 2005 - 11:55 PM

The alignment may be part of the problem.

As far as the fusible link being a problem I kind of doubt it since the ignition switch is working otherwise. There is only one power connection to the switch I believe.

#9 presslab

presslab

    Subaru Nut

  • Members
  • 867 posts
  • N. California

Posted 13 June 2005 - 12:04 AM

I have a 90 Loyale 4x4 Turbo Wagon Automatic. When I turn the Key typically nothing happens. Sometimes you can hear a faint click. Occasionally, if I keep cranking it will fire up eventually. However it always starts if I take a SCrewdriver and touch the big red positive lead to the Spade on the Back of the starter. I think this is called jumping it from the Solenoid. Anyways, I changed the Starter and this did not correct the problem. Does anyone know what would cause this. I also changed the Ignition switch. I think it goes from the Switch to the Starter and then to the Coil. The only thing I see between the Starter and the coil is a little round Fuse type thingy on the inside of the car by the fusebox. It look almost like a Flasher. But anyways I know the Starter Switch wires go through that before they get to the starter. I have seriously tried alot of thing s and i need help troubleshooting. Thanks, Gabe


I had this same problem, I replaced the ignition switch and the previous owner put a new starter in. Still did it occasionally and was starting to bug me!

So I installed a Bosch relay right at the starter, and my problems have never returned! Seems to be a common problem. I think the design is marginal and adding the relay makes it a much more robust system.

#10 SuBrat84

SuBrat84

    What's REALLY going on???

  • Members
  • 1,520 posts
  • Tucson

Posted 13 June 2005 - 12:19 AM

When I turn the Key typically nothing happens. Sometimes you can hear a faint click. Occasionally, if I keep cranking it will fire up eventually. However it always starts if I take a SCrewdriver and touch the big red positive lead to the Spade on the Back of the starter. I think this is called jumping it from the Solenoid.


I Fixed this exact same problem in an 82 gl sedan.. it was the fusable links.. take a look.. tell us what you find.. it's worth the 30 seconds it takes to check the FL!

#11 Cougar

Cougar

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 6,342 posts
  • Anchorage

Posted 13 June 2005 - 03:17 AM

I see what your saying SuBrat84. I agree, this could be the problem if the power is dropping to the switch due to a bad connection. It is easy to do and worth while to check.

#12 MilesFox

MilesFox

    Catch this Fox!

  • Members
  • 10,611 posts
  • Madison/Milwaukee, WI

Posted 13 June 2005 - 01:22 PM

install a pushbutton! not the heavy duty starter switch, but the generic "horn switch" from auto zone or the like, run from hot to the switch to the starter solenoid.

my car has a little small pushbutton mounted on the bezel, being a 2wd at to 4wd 5spd conversion. it also has a loose wirte under the hood for starting it there as well

#13 sregor13

sregor13

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 345 posts
  • Lander

Posted 17 June 2005 - 10:39 AM

Yes I had already checked the Fusible Link when I posted. Or Links I shoulds say. As far as the Pushbutton goes I have considered it but I am going to sell this or give it to my sister and I dont want to Jury rig anything. Thanks

#14 MilesFox

MilesFox

    Catch this Fox!

  • Members
  • 10,611 posts
  • Madison/Milwaukee, WI

Posted 17 June 2005 - 10:57 AM

you can make a nice clean install of a pushbutton on the knockout plates in the dash. here's a picture:http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2337

the car is an 88 and the bezel is from an 86. that is why it says fan but actuallt nothing goes there. on the 88 its a square cover if you pop it off theres a hole to use. there is also a knockout where the blue switch is and on the other side of the wheel as well, all of these make for nice clean switch or button installs, should you have to resort to a pushbutton

Yes I had already checked the Fusible Link when I posted. Or Links I shoulds say. As far as the Pushbutton goes I have considered it but I am going to sell this or give it to my sister and I dont want to Jury rig anything. Thanks



#15 sregor13

sregor13

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 345 posts
  • Lander

Posted 18 June 2005 - 04:22 PM

I switch out the Fusible Links and the car still would not start. Also I could jump it from the solenoid whether the car was in Park Drive or Nuetral. So I dont think it was the Neutral Safety Switch. Did I mention that sometimes if I crank it about 20 Times it sometimes catches and starts. Is that usually a Solenoid issue?

#16 Cougar

Cougar

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 6,342 posts
  • Anchorage

Posted 18 June 2005 - 09:15 PM

When you jumper the solenoid you are bypassing the safety switch. You need to to check the switch using a test light to see if voltage is getting through it when the key is turned to start.

#17 sregor13

sregor13

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 345 posts
  • Lander

Posted 19 June 2005 - 12:56 AM

When you jumper the solenoid you are bypassing the safety switch. You need to to check the switch using a test light to see if voltage is getting through it when the key is turned to start.


Okay I got the Shifter Area pulled apart and I am not sure where the Switch is. I know there is a Black/White going to my starter. So I was thinking I might find a Black/Yellow in there some where. I see two wires going over to the Light Bulb for the Shifter and then there a four wires going to the HOLD Button. Do you think the Switch is under the carpet somewhere? Thanks

#18 MilesFox

MilesFox

    Catch this Fox!

  • Members
  • 10,611 posts
  • Madison/Milwaukee, WI

Posted 19 June 2005 - 02:53 AM

look for the harness thet plugs all the rest of the wires. if its under the carpet just peel the carpet back and tug the wire, the plug is not too far in there

the 2 fattest wires you can jump to bypass theneutral switch as if it were a 5spd conversion. and you are correct, the other wire is black and yellow

this is for 3spd at's. 4spd at's you will have to find your wire at the tranny harness

#19 sregor13

sregor13

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 345 posts
  • Lander

Posted 19 June 2005 - 03:28 AM

look for the harness thet plugs all the rest of the wires. if its under the carpet just peel the carpet back and tug the wire, the plug is not too far in there

the 2 fattest wires you can jump to bypass theneutral switch as if it were a 5spd conversion. and you are correct, the other wire is black and yellow

this is for 3spd at's. 4spd at's you will have to find your wire at the tranny harness


Sorry to be dense, but I want to make sure I got this clear.

When you say "look for the harness thet plugs all the rest of the wires." Do you mean in the shifter area?"

Also I am not sure if mine is a 4 Speed or a 3, that HOLD Button is supossed to contitute a gear insn't it? Thanks

#20 Cougar

Cougar

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 6,342 posts
  • Anchorage

Posted 19 June 2005 - 09:32 PM

The picture I have in the manual isn't very good but it shows the switch in there. You should be able to find the switch by looking how the the shifter works. It ties to the switch mechanically somehow. Look for the B/Y and B/W wires. When you find them, jumper them together. Following the other wires should lead you to the connector also.

#21 MilesFox

MilesFox

    Catch this Fox!

  • Members
  • 10,611 posts
  • Madison/Milwaukee, WI

Posted 19 June 2005 - 11:28 PM

ok then if you have a hold button it must be the 4speed full time. there is a fat harness and a big black round plug connecting the tranny harness. the wire you wioll be looking for is the fattest 2 wires in this harness, you can test for voltage there to the starter circuit

#22 sregor13

sregor13

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 345 posts
  • Lander

Posted 22 June 2005 - 12:45 AM

OKay I found the big black plug. It was under the hood and the Black and Yellow Wire & Black and White wires were there. I jumpered them and so far so good. Thanks to everyon that helped get this figured. So we can say that on a 4 Speed Automatic Tranny the Wires to bypass the nuetral safety switch are under the hood about 12-16 Inches away from the Tranny.

#23 Cougar

Cougar

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 6,342 posts
  • Anchorage

Posted 22 June 2005 - 10:23 AM

Thanks for the info Sregor13. I have never looked for this connector before and would not have expected it to be there. Did you ever try starting the car in neutral to see if the engine would start that way?

#24 sregor13

sregor13

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 345 posts
  • Lander

Posted 22 June 2005 - 09:45 PM

Yes I did try to start the car in neutral, additionally in every other gear. NO go. I assume this might have something to do with the Transmission issues. Perhaps even the Shift Selector arm cited in the recall for this car. I hope I get all of the issues worked out. Thanks, Gabreil

#25 MilesFox

MilesFox

    Catch this Fox!

  • Members
  • 10,611 posts
  • Madison/Milwaukee, WI

Posted 23 June 2005 - 02:05 PM

this place you jumped it is where i discovered to bypass the park and neutral switches, in a car that was converted from 4at to 5spd dual range.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users