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Transmission? shifter bushings? Linkage?


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12 replies to this topic

#1 Hank Roberts

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 03:49 PM

Ok, you're as sick of this as I am, but ....
I've been advised by a couple of people now in email that "popping out of first gear" could be due to wear on the "shifter bushings" or a "bent linkage" -- and not a transmission problem, after my four attempts at a replacement tranny.

But I don't understand -- I thought the the "shifter bushings" and "linkage" stay on the car side and stay in place?

Do they get changed each time the mechanic tries another transmission?

Original tranny, 230,000 plus miles -- popping out of first and third gear, both 2wd and 4wd, mostly while coasting to a stop, engine braking.

First replacement -- did NOT pop out, went 300 miles. Threw engine codes, lacked one wire hookup, taken out.

Second replacement -- did NOT pop out of gear, went 300 miles, had the wrong ratio for rear end, wore out tires, hung up in 4wd and lurched badly when finally forced back to 2wd. Taken out.

Third replacement -- first replacement, finally, that actually matches the transmission model number on the tag from my original transmission -- same one I got on another USMB thread. Does not throw any codes and shifts smoothly. DOES pop out of first gear, after the first 30 miles of driving, in 2wd, while decelerating. Same as my first tranny (which I still have, in the back of the Subaru -- thinking I may yet send it to CCCR for rebuild!)

All the replacements so far are "Used Japanese" -- and I figured the current one is finally the exact right part number, but is worn out like my own was.

---> Is there any way that worn shifter bushings would
a) not have been caught by the mechanic, if he's been awake?
B) not have been fixed if they were a problem, and,
c) NOT cause problems on two transmissions then cause trouble again on the third one?

I am in over my head here. I thought I"d eliminated this as a possible cause and am still confused.

If it weren't for the carpal tunnel, I'd go back to bicycling, but that beats my wrists up. Maybe a unicycle .... or a recumbent. Or just a deck chair.

#2 MorganM

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 04:26 PM

Brain fart: tranny mounts and/or engine mounts so worn out that as you brake engine+trany slop forward therefore knocking it out of 1st and 3rd.

#3 grossgary

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 04:53 PM

pretty sure someone had this problem at www.xt6.net if you want to search there or post. if you search click on the button for "search all terms" or you'll get more returns than you want to sift through.

okay this is from memory but alot goes in my brain so i'm iffy on the accuracy - i believe it was some kind of bushings. and a mechanic won't take note of the bushings usually because he's just concerned about installing the end linkage to the trans, not much between the trans and interior that he cares about.

#4 Hank Roberts

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 05:55 PM

Brain fart: tranny mounts and/or engine mounts so worn out that as you brake engine+trany slop forward therefore knocking it out of 1st and 3rd.


This has never happened to me when braking, for whatever that's worth.

It has happened (with the original and again this latest transmission) when the car was in 1st gear (2wd or 4wd) and coasting on a downhill, using engine braking. The mechanic said they also got it to pop out of 3rd gear once.

The car did get a transplant engine, and as I said has had repeated transmission transplants lately -- so while I'll go look, I am fairly sure (shudder) that the mounts would not have been ignored if worn out.

But, again -- is the shifter (bushings) and linkage something that could have caused the problem on the first and last transmissions but not caused any problem on the two in between?

Or can I rule out the shifter bushings and linkage since for 600 miles on the second and third transmissions, nothing popped out.

NOTE -- I use this on Forest Service roads --ten percent grades in places, where low-low-4wd is _required_ for going up, and engine braking is required for long descents. So the 2 that did NOT pop out of gear got pressed hard in those conditions.

And the first and latest that do pop out, do it on city streets as well as in the woods.

Help me narrow this down -- the transmission rebuilder who's responded to me is a LONG shipping distance away, and has told me it's possible that the transmission might not need rebuilding, because it could be bushings or linkage -- but I haven't heard back from them in trying to settle the question addressed in this topic yet.

I'm still trying to use logic and deduction and observation here.

My mechanic has started to say that the car has been cursed. But I hope thinking this through gets him back to looking at it straight.

It's a machine. It's wearing out. It's old. I just need help knowing how the worn parts affect this problem to sort out WHAT is worn out in this case.

#5 grossgary

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 06:12 PM

i see hundreds of posts...but i think it was paul, user name kacerdias at www.xt6.net that had clutch issues like this and it turned out to be bushings. i'd at least post there if you don't want to search.

#6 MorganM

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 06:33 PM

I am fairly sure (shudder) that the mounts would not have been ignored if worn out.


If it's not on the invoice under parts you paid for; it didnt get replaced. Be it engine mounts, tranny mounts, or shifter linkage bushings.

#7 Hank Roberts

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 07:21 PM

Let me try asking the question I'm hoping for help with, one more time.

The mechanic says there's no problem with the bushings or linkage.

It's the people emailing me who say otherwise. Facts are this:

Four different transmissions have been recently in this car:

Original, since 230,000+ miles. Started popping out of first gear in April.
The car has had regular maintenance, a Used Japanese engine 60k miles ago, no sign of slop in the gearshift lever at any point.

Replacement (three Used Japanese Mystery transmissions) put in so far:

#1 -- did not pop out of gear even once in 300 miles. Removed -- wrong model (missing switch connection, engine control codes, grinding into 2nd)
#2 -- did not pop out of gear even once in 300 miles. Removed -- wrong model (wrong ratio for rear differential, hard shift and tire damage)
#3 -- Exact match for original model number on the tag, finally. No problem shifting. But it started popping out of first gear within 15 miles and did so repeatedly the first 30 miles.

So
-- the mechanic says the bushings and linkage are OK.
-- Logically, it makes sense to me that if they were worn, the problem would have persisted, but I was able to drive rough conditions, 4wd, putting upwards of 300 miles on each of two different transmissions WITHOUT either of them ever popping out of gear?

If I had a bushing wear or bent linkage problem, could it disappear for 2 transmissions, driven for 600 miles, and reappear when the third "used Japanese" transmission was put in?

I figured by now I could be sure that my old original tranny, and the replacement they just put in, both were worn internally?

What else do I need to do, to rule out the possibility that it's a bushing or linkage problem, if anything?

Look at them? Take pictures? Get them replaced regardless?

#8 edrach

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 07:27 PM

I'm not trying to bust your chops, but it's highly unlikely that you got four transmissions all with the same problem. I'm with the school of thought tranny mounts or bushings or such. Go back to the beginning and don't ignore something because "it's already been eliminated/checked/changed." Last thought...if you really feel it is the tranny, buy a known good used tranny from someone on the Board and install it. If it still happens you are easily the most unlucky person in the world or you have a mechanic who doesn't know what he's doing. Good luck.

#9 Hank Roberts

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 08:04 PM

I have not asked clearly enough to be understood, yet.

I did not have the problem with all four transmissions -- popping out of gear.

The problem happened with #1 and #4 but not #2 or #3.

So -- I don't see how a problem on the _vehicle_ could be so correlated with the transmission that happens to be in place -- go away for 600 miles and come back -- whether it's bushings or mounts. I'm willing to believe, but how can you make a problem disappear by changing transmissions?

Yeah, I'll try to get someone else to look at it. But I don't get the logic here.

I had popping out of gear start with my original tranny -- 230,000 miles.

I did NOT have that problem with replacement #1, driven 300 miles
(it was the wrong model, missing a switch -> ECU problems, removed)

I did NOT have that problem with replacement #1, driven 300 miles
(it was the wrong model, wrong gearing, removed)

The problem of popping out of gear happens again with replacement #4.

All have been used Japanese of unknown mileage.

#4 is the first exact model number match replacement, and has no electrical or gear ratio problems.

Popping out of gear _did_ go_away_ with replacement trannies #1 and #2, and _happens_again_ with replacement #3.

Can a bushing or linkage problem go away and come back like this:

#1 -- popping out, original tranny, 230K+ miles
#2 -- not popping out, used Japanese, electrical switch mismatch
#3 -- not popping out, used Japanese, gear ratio problem
#4 -- popping out, used Japanese, right model/type -- unknown mileage.

I can't do this work myself -- carpal tunnel, failed surgery, can't hold onto tools, and don't have a place to work on cars. Yes, I may just have had the worst luck yet -- someone had to. Why not me? **it happens.

At least I can serve others as a horrible example (grin).

#10 WoodsWagon

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 09:23 PM

replace the rubber mount between the body and the back of the shifter, replace any bushings back in there, and find out if it helps. I can see how it could affect the shifter staying in gear, bucause the tranny til is being twisted down by the engine braking, and if the shifet linkage wasn't able to move with it, it could pop out of gear. Tell the mechanic to replace them just to humor you, and It can't be more expensive than swapping in yet another tranny.

Yes the problem could have cropped up on the first and last but not on the middle two because the mechanic may have overtightened something that would hold the linkages in the propper position for a while.

Replace the bushings, and if that doesn't cut it, put the tranny with the wrong gearing in and swap the rear end out (easy job)with the proper ratio.

I agree the car aint cursed, it's just having something missed by the mechanic.

#11 Hank Roberts

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 12:01 PM

So --
Yeah, they should have just kept the rebuilt they got at first and replaced the rear differential to go with it. I know that now, but it's way too late, it's been shipped back to the rebuilder many weeks ago.

I'll ask them one more time to look again at the bushings and linkage. They have been doing it each time, and each time told me those are good, not worn. Odds are they were replaced by an earlier owner, they don't look like they're worn or sloppy.

But y'all keep saying this is the cause, so I'll ask him again to look again.

So is there anything that _can_ be wrong inside a used transmission that makes it pop out of first and third gear? Or was this all a complete waste of time trying to replace it?

#12 pyromanic

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 12:38 PM

So --
Yeah, they should have just kept the rebuilt they got at first and replaced the rear differential to go with it. I know that now, but it's way too late, it's been shipped back to the rebuilder many weeks ago.

I'll ask them one more time to look again at the bushings and linkage. They have been doing it each time, and each time told me those are good, not worn. Odds are they were replaced by an earlier owner, they don't look like they're worn or sloppy.

But y'all keep saying this is the cause, so I'll ask him again to look again.

So is there anything that _can_ be wrong inside a used transmission that makes it pop out of first and third gear? Or was this all a complete waste of time trying to replace it?


Well sure there is, worn synchros. At least that's my understanding of "popping out of gear" sydrome.

#13 Hank Roberts

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 03:09 PM

Update.

Bushings have been checked, again. No sign of any problem.

And -- in the last few hours, I've talked with both CCRinc and the mechanic by phone.

Both agree a rebuild is possible and after the experience trying to get a good used transmission, worth the effort to do.

By now, I hope, they've talked on the phone with each other directly, and set up for sending my original transmission back for a rebuild by CCR.

I told the mechanic to check on a rebuilt engine from CCR, while he's got them on the phone.

Updates as they happen.




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