Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

power widows 24/7


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 loyalewithcheese

loyalewithcheese

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 61 posts
  • La Honda

Posted 23 July 2005 - 04:31 PM

hey anyone ever wired their power windows so they work all the time? i was spoiled by my nissan that would at least let them work until you opened the door so i figure why not just wire them up to always work.

anyone know which wire to splice into?

cheers
droo

ps. cleaning the switches totally fixed my previous window issues, thanks!

#2 ausubaru92

ausubaru92

    Turbo Talker

  • Members
  • 583 posts
  • Bowraville NSW Australia

Posted 23 July 2005 - 05:16 PM

why not just take the power window wire that goes to the ign sw and cut it, put a fuse on it and connect it directly to the battery

I dont have power windows/locks,.. YET.:brow:
Conversion is on its way:banana:
Gannon

#3 loyalewithcheese

loyalewithcheese

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 61 posts
  • La Honda

Posted 23 July 2005 - 06:32 PM

why not just take the power window wire that goes to the ign sw and cut it, put a fuse on it and connect it directly to the battery

I dont have power windows/locks,.. YET.:brow:
Conversion is on its way:banana:
Gannon


thats, the plan, just wondering if anyone knows what wire to splice, cause i hate guessing :D

#4 Cougar

Cougar

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 6,342 posts
  • Anchorage

Posted 23 July 2005 - 09:21 PM

According to my '88 manual the main power for the windows is already hot to the relay contact. It is the power to the relay coil that is controlled by the ignition switch. The Green/White wire goes to fuse #10 on the fuse panel. Not sure what year your vehicle is so it may, or may not be the same.

#5 TahoeFerrari

TahoeFerrari

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 106 posts
  • Tahoe City

Posted 23 July 2005 - 11:32 PM

I've just begun to research that very thing for my '89 wagon. All my other cars have manual windows except my '66 cad which has an "emergency override" switch to allow the driver to operate the windows with the ignition off. It makes be a bit crazy to park somewhere, turn the ign off, put my keys in my pocket, and then realize I forgot to close the windows. I want to do something similar to my wagon as the switch in my caddy.

So far I've checked the owners manual (look in the index for "fuses and circuits") and it shows that the power window relay is controlled by fuse 12. The owner's manual is wrong. I pulled fuse 12 and the windows still worked.

According to the wiring diagrams in my Haynes, it's fuse 10. So I pulled fuse 10 and bingo, no power windows!

Thats as far as I've gotten. I haven't pulled the fuse block to see what wires are on the back of fuse 10. Now you could just jumper some power to the circuit (vs bus) side of Fuse 10 with fuse taps (Napa/Belden p/n 784601) from say the bus side of the power door lock fuse (don't have number for that right now) which is always hot, but Fuse 10 also goes to some other things that you might not want to apply power to with the ign off. I'll probably be able to finish my research on this tomorrow and at least figure out what needs to be done to enable the power windows without screwing something else up. I expect I'll put a switch in to replicate the "emergency overide" functionality of my caddy. I'll try to remember to update this or add an additonal post tomorrow or maybe Monday.

CORRECTION:
Above I said that one could install a jumper from the bus side of the door lock fuse (which is F19, btw) to the circuit side of the power window fuse (F10) with fuse taps. If you choose to do this, you must also do the following:
1) Install a dummy (BLOWN) fuse in F10 to prevent power being applied back through the fuse to the bus side of F10 and everything that is attached to the bus (other fuses/circuits).
2) Install an in-line 15A fuse in the new jumper between the bus side of F19 and the circuit side of F10 to take the place of the dummy fuse you've put in F10. An "Add-a-Ckt" in F19 would work well for this to provide the jumper as well as hold the new fuse. I don't have a p/n for this but Pep-Boys has them (Napa also carries this, but wants twice as much).

I still haven't verified what else is on F10, owner's manaul says "Turn signal, Back-up lights, AT control unit" AT = ???? Automatic Transmission? If that's all, I'd say it would be OK to install the jumper as described with or without a switch.

Sorry about the initial bad advice on the jumper - it was the end of a long, hot Saturday. I'm much better at this if I do it early in the AM as I'm now doing.


BTW - I mentioned the power door lock fuse which is hot all the time. This was another anoyance to me. I'm generally a solo driver and it just bugged me that the door locks for all the doors operated every time I locked/unlocked the driver's door. So I added a switch to the circuit to enable/disable the power door locks. I did it without cutting any wires by using an "add-a-circuit" fuse holder to add my wiring to the FRONT side of the fuse block and without modifiying the stock wiring at all.

#6 TahoeFerrari

TahoeFerrari

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 106 posts
  • Tahoe City

Posted 24 July 2005 - 12:09 PM

OK, I've looked at the back of the fuse block and taken some meter readings. Here's what I've come up with.

Thanks loyalewithcheese for getting my interest going on this again. I've been wanting to do it for some time and keep putting if off. Who knows how long it would have been until I got to it if not for your post.

All of the following was determined by looking at my '89 GL wagon, it's owner's manual, and the wiring diagrams in the Haynes 1600-1800 (through '94) manual (not to mention my own electronics/electric engineering skills). I believe it will also be true for all of the Loyale/Leone bodied cars except maybe a few of the very early '85s which I've been told have a hybrid EA81/EA82 electrical system.

F10 also supplies power to the back-up lights and turn signals.

My thoughts as described in my earlier (updated) posted are essentially correct.

First of all, there is really not any benefit that I can see by cutting into the wiring behind the fuse block. There is only one wire (grn/wht) on F10. The splices to the back-up lights and directional signals are most likely inaccessable in the wiring harness. If you want to supply power to only the power window relay, you'd have to do it at the relay - somewhere under the driver's seat I think.

FYI everyone: on the EA82 fuse block for all the fuses, the bus (or supply) side is the bottom and the circuit (or load) side is the top of the fuse.

My earlier post said you could run a jumper with an in-line 15A fuse from the bus side of F19 to the circuit side of F10 via fuse taps with a blown fuse in F10 to prevent voltage from being supplied back to the fuse the bus side of F10. Which, btw, would supply voltage everything on F11 and F12. Things such as the ignition coil and fuel pump which should definitely not have 24/7 power to them!

You can still do that, but you can also jumper from the CIRCUIT side of F19 (protected by the 20A door lock fuse) to the circuit side of F10 (still with the dummy/blown fuse in F10) without the inline fuse. Here's why.

1) The power window relay only draws 0.10A (100ma).
2) The backup lights draw 3.7A.
3) The turn signals draw about 5A max - pulsating current.

So even if you left your car in reverse, with a turn signal on, and operate the door locks, I doubt you'll blow the 20A door lock fuse. If you do, well just don't do it again!!

You could also add a switch somewhere in the jumper to turn off the window relay (and other stuff on F10), but there is a disadvantage to doing this. If the switch is off while you're driving, you will not have backup lights (you don't drive very fast in reverse, do you?) and you will not have any turn signals. Maybe not a problem for you, but could be to someone else driving your car.

CAUTION: If you do not use a switch or use a switch and forget to turn it off and leave the car parked with the transmission in reverse you can run your battery down over the course of a day or two because the backup lights will be ON and they are a significant load (about 3.5A in my '89 wagon). Note that you cannot use a momentary switch because it needs to be on while you are driving if you wish to use your turn signals!

Because of these potential problems, I've come up with a more elegant solution involving a headlight relay to supply voltage to the F10 circuit whenever the ignition is on and a momentary switch to enable the windows at other times. It is plug and play - none of the existing wires need to be cut or spliced. This post is long enough already, so PM me if you want details for that.

Sorry all for the long, detailed post - I just can't help myself, I've been trained as an engineer/scientist and I just can't seem to help it.

For something else I learned, check this http://www.ultimates...ead.php?t=40124

#7 Hank Roberts

Hank Roberts

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 342 posts

Posted 24 July 2005 - 05:46 PM

I appreciate this kind of detailed info very much. I hope you'll go ahead and post the advanced design using a relay -- and set out the details and cautions. I've wondered if having power available to the window switches while the engine is off would drain the battery at all (is there any loss just keeping that system 'hot'?).

#8 Cougar

Cougar

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 6,342 posts
  • Anchorage

Posted 24 July 2005 - 07:13 PM

There is no current draw on the battery until something is turned on.

I think an easier solution to this modification would be to add a single pole-double throw switch into the circuit. The common of the switch would tie to the relay coil contact that the existing Green/White is tied to (refer to my earlier post #4). Remove the G/W wire from the relay contact and tie it to one side of the new switch. Since power is already hot going to the relay switched contact, just add a small fuse from that contact going to the relay, and tie the other end of the fuse to the other new switch connection. Now you can run the windows either way using the selection switch. One way will let them be run as they were originally and the other way will let them run with the ignition off. If you want to turn the windows off totally then a switch with a 'center off' position or a 'on-off-on' switch will do the job.

#9 TahoeFerrari

TahoeFerrari

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 106 posts
  • Tahoe City

Posted 25 July 2005 - 08:30 AM

I appreciate this kind of detailed info very much. I hope you'll go ahead and post the advanced design using a relay -- and set out the details and cautions. I've wondered if having power available to the window switches while the engine is off would drain the battery at all (is there any loss just keeping that system 'hot'?).


What Cougar said.

When I measured the current draw of the power window relay at F10, I also measured the total current drain at the battery with and without the jumper from F19 to F10 installed. The current without the jumper was 7ma (5 of which is the Loyale clock keep alive and the rest is probably the radio memory keep alive). With the jumper the load was approx 120ma, an increase which agrees with the current I measured at F10 for the power window relay alone.

While not insignificant, it is low enough that it would not run the battery down for many days if a non-switched jumper was installed or the switch was not turned off.

Since my last post I've thought about this some more and added a caution about the backup lights running down batteries to my last post.

Cougar's solution is good as well. I just personally prefer not to alter the stock wiring by cutting or splicing in any way - if possible (I also have an aversion to removing seats and snaking wiring under carpets), prefering instead to try to come up with "plug-n-play" electrical mods that can be quickly removed to restore things to "stock" if there is any question about their operation.

#10 loyalewithcheese

loyalewithcheese

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 61 posts
  • La Honda

Posted 25 July 2005 - 11:21 AM

thanks for all the legwork guys, i'll try to get into my wiring soon and test out these ideas. after that i just need to install some remote door locks. this whole key in the door sucks when you have a baby to move around! i was way to spoiled by my remote locks on my nissan.

#11 NorthWet

NorthWet

    Eeyore Incarnate

  • Members
  • 5,039 posts
  • Bremerton, WA

Posted 25 July 2005 - 12:12 PM

thanks for all the legwork guys, i'll try to get into my wiring soon and test out these ideas. after that i just need to install some remote door locks. this whole key in the door sucks when you have a baby to move around! i was way to spoiled by my remote locks on my nissan.

dptyrob went through the remote door lock thing earlier this year. You might want to take a look for his thread; amongst other things, he discussed having to add an actuator to the driver's door.

#12 loyalewithcheese

loyalewithcheese

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 61 posts
  • La Honda

Posted 25 July 2005 - 12:35 PM

dptyrob went through the remote door lock thing earlier this year. You might want to take a look for his thread; amongst other things, he discussed having to add an actuator to the driver's door.


thanks, i think i did see that already. i just need to order up the remotes and actuator. my problem is i'm too picky about the remotes, some of them look so crappy. i guess i'll just get over it once they are locking/unlocking my doors from 10ft away :D

#13 Cougar

Cougar

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 6,342 posts
  • Anchorage

Posted 25 July 2005 - 01:17 PM

Looking at my '88 manual again, it shows that the window relay is located under the passenger seat. There is a connector (P1) located near the right strut tower that ties to the window relay contacts. If a spare harness could be found at a salvage yard you could take both sides of connector P1 and use that to tie into the circuit using the switch setup I mentioned. There would be no cut wires this way and the original connectors could be plugged back together if you wanted to be original again.

I'm not sure where the current drain is coming from when the jumper is installed between F19 and F10 that TF mentioned in his post. The window relay will not draw any current until a switch is turned on. I would not want to have 120ma of idle draw on the battery. It is not a lot of current but it is a lot more than the normal 7ma current draw before a change. I start looking for battery drain problems if the current draw is more than 80-100ma on the system.

#14 TahoeFerrari

TahoeFerrari

    USMB Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 106 posts
  • Tahoe City

Posted 25 July 2005 - 10:48 PM

Looking at my '88 manual again, it shows that the window relay is located under the passenger seat. There is a connector (P1) located near the right strut tower that ties to the window relay contacts. If a spare harness could be found at a salvage yard you could take both sides of connector P1 and use that to tie into the circuit using the switch setup I mentioned. There would be no cut wires this way and the original connectors could be plugged back together if you wanted to be original again.

I'm not sure where the current drain is coming from when the jumper is installed between F19 and F10 that TF mentioned in his post. The window relay will not draw any current until a switch is turned on. I would not want to have 120ma of idle draw on the battery. It is not a lot of current but it is a lot more than the normal 7ma current draw before a change. I start looking for battery drain problems if the current draw is more than 80-100ma on the system.


Now using JY connectors to tap into the wiring to modify things is more to my liking!! You must be using the FSM - I'm only using Haynes & Chiltons and they show how things are functionally connected, but not the actual physical routing like the FSM does. I've just got to get an FSM!

The 120ma is the 7ma (clock + radio (probably)) + the 110 for the power window relay. The power window relay is energized anytime the car is in start or run according to the wiring diagrams I have (and by actual test - I could hear it) and in turn supplies power to the all the switches and motors for the widows directly from a fusable link.

I agree that it is not an ideal situation to have that much ignition-off drain. I was just saying that it would not run you battery down for many days if you left the switch in the F10-F19 jumper in the ON position.

#15 Cougar

Cougar

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 6,342 posts
  • Anchorage

Posted 25 July 2005 - 11:23 PM

TahoeFerrari,

You are correct on both counts. I do have the factory manual and the relay is on when the ignition is on. The other side of the relay coil ties directly to ground. I just assumed that the relay would turn on with the window switch. I didn't bother looking at the other side of the circuit.

One could use a momentary type switch to do what I was suggesting. This would leave the power in the normal position until you needed it. Then the switch would have to be held down along with the window switch to raise or lower the window. This would keep the current drain down while the car is sitting.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users