Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

2.0 & 2.2 Diesel Boxers For Europe Next Year


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#1 blitz

blitz

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,091 posts
  • Warren, Michigan

Posted 19 September 2005 - 09:49 AM

Well, Subaru's doing it. I think it's great.

http://www.stuff.co....7729a30,00.html

Obviously I'll be curious to see how they handled the bore/stroke ratio & rod/stroke ratio dilemma and how the fuel efficiency stacks up against inline four diesels of similar displacement.

#2 subeman90

subeman90

    Soobologist

  • Moderator
  • 2,777 posts
  • Akron PA

Posted 19 September 2005 - 10:09 AM

now only if it comes to the us will I be truely impressed...and actually make good mileage at the same time.

#3 Flowmastered87GL

Flowmastered87GL

    WCSS Drunk

  • Members
  • 6,076 posts
  • Portland, Oregon

Posted 19 September 2005 - 11:52 AM

Hmmmm 2.2 liter diesel baja with dual range would be nice :brow:

#4 operose

operose

    1000+ Super USER!

  • Members
  • 1,264 posts
  • Potsdam

Posted 19 September 2005 - 12:43 PM

Hmmmm 2.2 liter diesel baja with dual range would be nice :brow:


especially with increased towing capacity... solid rear axle w/ leaf springs anyone?

#5 langosta39

langosta39

    New User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29 posts
  • Coeur d'Alene

Posted 19 September 2005 - 12:55 PM

Give us a diesel electric hybrid and I would buy one in a second. Diesel gets great highway mileage and electric gets great city mileage. It seems so common sense to me.

#6 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,507 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 19 September 2005 - 01:24 PM

Diesel would be great here, now if the refineries would just clean up the fuel so it would happen. The floodgates are ready to open with deisels from all the auto mfg, just with todays fuel they can't pass emissions. I get excited thinking all that torques being available in anything subaru with a dual range. *drool*

Joe

#7 All_talk

All_talk

    1000+ Super USER!

  • Members
  • 1,093 posts
  • Thorp (Ellensburg)

Posted 19 September 2005 - 01:25 PM

Subaru must do this if they want a significant market share in Europe… last I heard was that 2/3 of all vehicles sold there are diesel.

And all “hybrids” SHOULD be diesel… I wont go into my long rate on this one, but there is a reason locomotives, earthmovers and stationary generators are diesel/electric. The problem with cars is that sometimes the best ideas get mucked up by marketing.

Gary

P.S. part of the "long rant" can be found here:
http://www.ultimates...urbo volkswagen

#8 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,507 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 19 September 2005 - 01:31 PM

Yes all hybrids should be deisel, but they have to clean up the deisel fuel first, which I dont think is expected to be done till 2007.


Joe

#9 All_talk

All_talk

    1000+ Super USER!

  • Members
  • 1,093 posts
  • Thorp (Ellensburg)

Posted 19 September 2005 - 01:45 PM

You're right Joe, just seems funny that Europe (and most of the rest of the word) managed to do this years ago... again the lumbering US lags behind. :-\

Its really our own fault, we're so damn complacent here, we accept whatever the big corporations and marketing geniuses cram down our throat... never an independent thought.

Yes all hybrids should be deisel, but they have to clean up the deisel fuel first, which I dont think is expected to be done till 2007.


Joe



#10 casm

casm

    The Timex of Lifters

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Seattle, Washington

Posted 19 September 2005 - 07:47 PM

Its really our own fault, we're so damn complacent here, we accept whatever the big corporations and marketing geniuses cram down our throat... never an independent thought.


Much like hybrids, themselves an ill-conceived, marginally-effective, and at best overcomplicated approach to the issue. If it weren't for the California legislature effectively killing diesel passenger vehicles in this market (the US' largest), we'd probably be close to on a par with Europe in that regard.

#11 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,507 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 19 September 2005 - 08:30 PM

Try again ...

President Bush signed tougher deisel emissions into law in his first term. They affect trucks, busses and construction equipment. It forces the refiners to make low sulfur deisel fuel to have the engines meet the new tough standards ( I checked its by 2010). The automakers in this country have engines that will PASS CA NY and other state standards, its just the refiners that are slow for whatever reason to make the fuel. NY also has had tougher emissions standards for deisels, along with a few other east coast states.
http://www.treehugge...biodiesel_h.php
The direct injection deisels can not run on our deisel fuel here in the states. The engines foul, as do the emission controls.
Also over seas they have a much higher pollution issue from particulates then we do here. Europe does not get a free ride on emissions from deisels either.

Joe

#12 casm

casm

    The Timex of Lifters

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Seattle, Washington

Posted 19 September 2005 - 09:22 PM

President Bush signed tougher deisel emissions into law in his first term.


While this is correct as far as it goes, California's been openly opposed to diesel-engined passenger vehicles for probably close to 15 years - that we'll start seeing them on the market again here over the next couple is hard to believe, knowing how much this state loves enacting knee-jerk legislation. It's one of the few smart things they've done for us lately.

With respect to diesel emissions, I completely agree with tougher emissions standards for them. It would've been ludicrous to continue using high-sulphur diesel when new engine technologies effectively make its need redundant. It's also rather nice that the White House is taking an active interest in biodiesel as a workable fuel.

http://www.treehugge...biodiesel_h.php
The direct injection deisels can not run on our deisel fuel here in the states. The engines foul, as do the emission controls.


I'd be interested to know the source on this, since as far as I'm aware there're virtually no mechanical differences between, say, a VW TDi engine sold in the US and one sold in Europe.

Also over seas they have a much higher pollution issue from particulates then we do here. Europe does not get a free ride on emissions from deisels either.


This is correct, but most of that particulate issue stems from commercial vehicles, not passenger vehicles. Diesel passenger vehicles are about 40% of the European car market, and are subject to far more stringent emissions requirements than trucks - much like here. Modern catalysed passenger diesels typically run as particulate-free as gas engines.

#13 Scottbaru

Scottbaru

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 312 posts
  • Holland

Posted 19 September 2005 - 09:43 PM

The direct injection deisels can not run on our deisel fuel here in the states. The engines foul, as do the emission controls.

I'm pretty sure tdi stands for turbo direct injection, and they've been around a while. The California Air Resources Board set an impossibly low particulate standard for diesels long ago, effectively killing most diesel cars in the U.S. Nevermind that they put out significantly less of many more lethal toxins than gas engines.

#14 nipper

nipper

    Semi Elite Master of the

  • Members
  • 17,507 posts
  • Long Island NY

Posted 19 September 2005 - 10:09 PM

If you want some dry reading:
http://www.ncseonlin.../Air/air-37.cfm

some less dry reading
http://www.findartic...83/ai_101939315

http://www.swri.edu/...pses/039281.htm

Europe does not worry about NOx, they worry about CO2. NOx is what the US worries about. SO you really cant compare emission standards, though there has been an attempt to unify Asia, EU and North America emissions (we cant even unify them in all 50 states). Particulate filters are desighned to either clean themselves or be serviced at pre determined intervals. The ones that are self cleaning will run hotter and burn themselves out faster due to the shorter cycles (remeber when catalytic converters first came out). Clogged filters lead to poor performance, which in turn can lead to engine damage, and complaints about performance, The diesel industry is still hurting from the GM fiasco (again thank you gm) from the first passenger car diesels, so they are very cautous about entering the US market again until they are perfect.




I hope that answered some questions, otherwise i have to dig into my SAE database... if you really want to see some dry reading...

Joe

#15 TheBrian

TheBrian

    Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

  • Members
  • 270 posts
  • Buffalo

Posted 19 September 2005 - 10:40 PM

Awesome. It would be likewise cool if Subaru were the first to offer a diesel-electric hybrid. They won't, of course, since diesels are torquey and don't need the assistance of electric motors, and diesels don't like and won't use the on/off ability of the hybrid car. Plus, the diesel option adds $1-2k to a car, and hybridization adds $4-5k. So that's why there aren't any diesel-electric hybrid autos out there.
Hmm. BMW says they would like to add regenerative braking and a small electric motor across their entire lineup. I guess that would include the diesels.
Anyway, hooray for Subaru. Maybe they'll win me back, yet.

#16 Snowman

Snowman

    Midnight Passenger

  • Members
  • 3,538 posts
  • Haines

Posted 20 September 2005 - 12:46 AM

I need to get back on researching this, but I'm thinking about trying to make a diesel subaru hybrid. Diesel electric trains don't have the engine connected to the wheels mechanically. They're basically huge gensets that can run at constant RPMs, which makes the engine more efficient and less polluting, and then the electric motors put all the power down. I think the same concept would work for a car. Basically, I would just put a battery bank and a small diesel genset in the back of the car with some solar panels on the roof for good measure, and hook up an electric motor to the front of the subaru tranny.

It's crazy, but it just might work! Now I just need $5000 for the awesome electric motor I want to get:banghead: .

#17 1 Lucky Texan

1 Lucky Texan

    I read a lot about Subarus

  • Members
  • 4,287 posts
  • Texas

Posted 20 September 2005 - 08:06 AM

I need to get back on researching this, but I'm thinking about trying to make a diesel subaru hybrid. Diesel electric trains don't have the engine connected to the wheels mechanically. They're basically huge gensets that can run at constant RPMs, which makes the engine more efficient and less polluting, and then the electric motors put all the power down. I think the same concept would work for a car. Basically, I would just put a battery bank and a small diesel genset in the back of the car with some solar panels on the roof for good measure, and hook up an electric motor to the front of the subaru tranny.

It's crazy, but it just might work! Now I just need $5000 for the awesome electric motor I want to get:banghead: .


These kinda projects have been done in the past. I think using aircraft starter motors. For a light car, probably don't need more than 18-20 hp. Because electrics are rated at continuous duty - they can take bursts to much higher output but you can move a full size Chevy truck down the highway at 55mph with only 12 hp. It's inertia during acceleration that really sucks up the power. If you include a way to 'top up' in the garage overnight from household 120ac, you might do well. I'd consider a propane genset too. If you research the wayToyota did it, you'll see some cool engineering (I doun't want to start a debate over the questionable econimics of hybrids here). Light weight motor built for constant output at narrow rpm coupled through CV transmission to motor/generator. Very nice.

#18 rweddy

rweddy

    1000+ Super USER!

  • Members
  • 1,408 posts
  • Castle Rock, CO

Posted 20 September 2005 - 09:06 AM

Give us a diesel electric hybrid and I would buy one in a second. Diesel gets great highway mileage and electric gets great city mileage. It seems so common sense to me.


I would love a Diesel but not a hybrid, or any mix if it.

Read this before you jump on the Hybrid bandwagon.

http://www.autobytel...nt/366/id/25467

#19 blitz

blitz

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,091 posts
  • Warren, Michigan

Posted 20 September 2005 - 09:06 AM

I always thought a locomotive-style diesel / electric would be a pretty good idea. Just enough electrical storage capacity to be able capture the braking energy for use at the next acceleration. Some sort of a super-capacitor made out of corn-starch or something. :brow: The thing would be edible after it's electrical properties were used-up.

A small turbo diesel tuned to operate over a narrow rpm band would be efficient. We'll probably see it soon. Minutes from the Bilderberg meeting several months back state that the goal is to have crude at $150 US within a year and a half - by any means.

#20 All_talk

All_talk

    1000+ Super USER!

  • Members
  • 1,093 posts
  • Thorp (Ellensburg)

Posted 20 September 2005 - 09:47 AM

I would love a Diesel but not a hybrid, or any mix if it.

Read this before you jump on the Hybrid bandwagon.

http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_int/366/id/25467


True, hybrids are not the long-term future, they are a stopgap that can buy us some time and provide a cleaner way to burn off the remaining dead dinos. BUT, that article is full of misinformation and unsubstantiated BS. And what do they propose as the better solution… hydrogen?? Use in a fuel cell no doubt. Hydrogen production is a net loss… meaning it takes more energy to produce that you get back from it, its going to take a fundamental jump in technology before it has any commercial viability, if ever.

The future is fully electric cars, charged from a truly renewable source like wind, water or solar. I fact, the sun is the origin of all our energy and research money would be best spent improving direct conversion efficiency, high density (low environmental impact) storage and propulsion system efficiency.

The large corporations will slow this evolution (supported by ignorant and corrupt governments) because there is a LOT of money to be made selling the intermediate technologies.

Gary

#21 casm

casm

    The Timex of Lifters

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Seattle, Washington

Posted 20 September 2005 - 09:52 AM

Europe does not worry about NOx, they worry about CO2. NOx is what the US worries about.


Yes and no... Remember that the standards vary country-by-country, so some may test for one thing that the others don't. Particulates (in the form of smoky exhaust) seem to be a fairly common denominator, though.

Getting on to the hydrogen production question for a moment (and I'll admit up front that I'm a biodiesel bigot, but would get behind anything workable): the fuel cell issue may have been solved if there's any truth to this article. It'll be interesting to see how it works out.

#22 rweddy

rweddy

    1000+ Super USER!

  • Members
  • 1,408 posts
  • Castle Rock, CO

Posted 20 September 2005 - 10:40 AM

True, hybrids are not the long-term future, they are a stopgap that can buy us some time and provide a cleaner way to burn off the remaining dead dinos. BUT, that article is full of misinformation and unsubstantiated BS.


Here are the facts, Hybrids are not worth the extra money.

Lets compare Toyota Prius which is one of the most popular

Prious costs 22,000 base (most are paying much more )
This gets 60 city 51 Highway

Echo cost 11k basically same car, same dimensions size etc.
This gets 35 city 42 mpg Highway

How many miles would you have to drive to make up the $10,000 dollars price difference?? NEVER!
Even if you drive 2000 miles a month (I do) at $3 gallon the difference is only $25 dollars a month!!!

Also you have to worry about dealership only maintance, how long will the battery last, etc.

I like the idea of Hybrid but the numbers do not work out.
Now diesel on the other hand I love. You can get a jetta wagon right now that gets 50-60 mpg. Diesel motors last much longer than gas and you can even convert them to run on veggie oil!!

#23 1 Lucky Texan

1 Lucky Texan

    I read a lot about Subarus

  • Members
  • 4,287 posts
  • Texas

Posted 20 September 2005 - 10:56 AM

Here are the facts, Hybrids are not worth the extra money.

Lets compare Toyota Prius which is one of the most popular

Prious costs 22,000 base (most are paying much more )
This gets 60 city 51 Highway

Echo cost 11k basically same car, same dimensions size etc.
This gets 35 city 42 mpg Highway

How many miles would you have to drive to make up the $10,000 dollars price difference?? NEVER!
Even if you drive 2000 miles a month (I do) at $3 gallon the difference is only $25 dollars a month!!!

Also you have to worry about dealership only maintance, how long will the battery last, etc.

I like the idea of Hybrid but the numbers do not work out.
Now diesel on the other hand I love. You can get a jetta wagon right now that gets 50-60 mpg. Diesel motors last much longer than gas and you can even convert them to run on veggie oil!!


Additionally, likely Toyota is losing money on each Prius. My bil and my fil/mil have Prii. My bil's just went to the shop with a problem they said couldn't happen without warning - the 308v battery pack is completely dead. Requires a 'special tool' to recharge when in that condition. Seems there is only one of these devoces for every muti-state area and his car had to wait a coupla days for shipping the thing into D/FW area. Got his car back Monday morning. Dead again Monday night. haven't heard what the new diagnoses is. 80k miles on the clock.

the inlaws love their prius and I had some pressure to get one instead of my WRX wagon. I'm happy with my new soob. So far.

#24 casm

casm

    The Timex of Lifters

  • Members
  • 190 posts
  • Seattle, Washington

Posted 20 September 2005 - 11:23 AM

I like the idea of Hybrid but the numbers do not work out.


And even going beyond the finances, nobody takes into account the energy and materials spent in making a new car - save natural resources, buy used. Oh, and not to mention that those 60/50mpg figures are under ideal conditions; most owners are reporting numbers in the low 40s. My 1977 Renault LeCar used to get the same mileage. Hybrids really were a great job on behalf of the auto industry in terms of pulling the wool over the consumer's eyes.

Now diesel on the other hand I love. You can get a jetta wagon right now that gets 50-60 mpg. Diesel motors last much longer than gas and you can even convert them to run on veggie oil!!


Too bad that we can't get them in the five CARB states right now :( On the upside, though (and admittedly it's not vegetable oil, but still cool), the Jeep Liberty CRD leaves the factory with B5 biodiesel in the tank, and VWoA apparently just approved B20 for use in the TDi-engined cars.

#25 All_talk

All_talk

    1000+ Super USER!

  • Members
  • 1,093 posts
  • Thorp (Ellensburg)

Posted 20 September 2005 - 11:44 AM

Richard, you and I are almost in complete agreement; I just feel that particular article is written with some misleading opinions and conjecture. And ignores that idea that the hybrid buyer is willing to pay more for reduced pollution.

On the other hand, I’m a huge proponent of diesel and feel that VW is leading the industry with the TDI. I believe that current hybrids are falling far short of their potential, even with currently available technology. The marriage of hybrid with modern diesels would be a huge step in the right direction. Your math is correct, in a purely dollars and cents debate the hybrid gains you nothing and the current environmental payoff may be more than offset by the fact that building them (and recycling them) creates more environmental hazards than conventional cars. They will get better and may even make some sense at some point… but they are still a short term solution.

All of this is a moot point for a guy like me, I simply can’t afford a new car payment. I drive about 4500 miles a month and currently do it on a ’91 Legacy SS at about 27mpg, even the TDI’s 45mpg wont cover the difference in operating costs… might cover the difference in insurance if I’m lucky, never mind the loan payment.

Gary




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users