36 replies to this topic

[Lawsonmh15]

Well, I was coming home from my girlfriends' Family's house last night and got a puncture on the INSIDE sidewall. What's strange is that it was midway up the sidewall???

It was the rear driver side and after getting the spare on, I could immediately feel the difference in the tranny. Luckily I was only about 5 Miles from home and babied it home.

My ?'s:

Is it necessary to put in the FWD OD fuse in?
If so, should I even CONSIDER driving it 350 miles over the next couple days up and back to the mountains?

Already went to Big O. The kid said that I ought to be able to get away with only getting one more tire. However, it seems as though the BFG Traction TA's are wearing much quicker than the 60K mile rating. (Only 15K miles Driven)
How much of a difference in tread-wear is acceptable without risking damaging the tranny?

[chazmataz]

ok, i read a bullitin on the all wheel tire drive issue and it stated that there can't be anymore then a 0.05 % difference in diameter all the way around your vehicle otherwise you will put a strain on your drivetrain in all wheel drive mode and risk damage.


this bullitin was explaining the differences of selective 4wd, full time 4wd and all wheel drive.

[Lawsonmh15]

ok, i read a bullitin on the all wheel tire drive issue and it stated that there can't be anymore then a 0.05 % difference in diameter all the way around your vehicle otherwise you will put a strain on your drivetrain in all wheel drive mode and risk damage.


this bullitin was explaining the differences of selective 4wd, full time 4wd and all wheel drive.

************!!! That's a low tolerance. Thanks for the speedy reply.

[chazmataz]

yes, it is, sorry for your luck.

also the bullitin said that it was said to 5% at one time but that has been disproven to be as low as the 0.05%

to answer your other question it won't hurt to drive around in fwd but then your traction is limlited compared to what your use too.

[Storydude1]

yes, it is, sorry for your luck.

also the bullitin said that it was said to 5% at one time but that has been disproven to be as low as the 0.05%

to answer your other question it won't hurt to drive around in fwd but then your traction is limlited compared to what your use too.

I hate to say it, but you will find more than a .05% differnce in circumfrence in NEW tires. NO tire is EXACTLY the same size as another. I've found new tires to be as much as 1/4" off between a set.

IF you must use old, and new, split them old/new PER AXLE. One old, one new. The differential will eat up 99.997% of the difference. NEVER put new on only one axle.

[chazmataz]

yes, i know new tires can be off too but mixing one new tire to 3 used tires would put you off in size much more then 4 new would. but, most and do believe all tire stores/companies won't just put one new tire on an all wheel drive vehicle because then they will be reponsible for your drivetrain if something goes out in it. then for them it won't be worth the cost of selling you that tire verses selling you 4 tires.

but then do you want to risk a bigger bill down the road your self if you do find someone willing to put one tire on.

[Lawsonmh15]

yes, i know new tires can be off too but mixing one new tire to 3 used tires would put you off in size much more then 4 new would. but, most and do believe all tire stores/companies won't just put one new tire on an all wheel drive vehicle because then they will be reponsible for your drivetrain if something goes out in it. then for them it won't be worth the cost of selling you that tire verses selling you 4 tires.

but then do you want to risk a bigger bill down the road your self if you do find someone willing to put one tire on.

Right about now I'm kicking myself in the A S S for not ponying up the extra dough for the Road Hazard!!!

I just got back from a different Big O and the guy, Shawn (a bit older and demonstrated knowledge of AWD) confirmed the area I THOUGHT was the wear-bar, actually was despite what the kid at the first Big O told me. After looking at the tires he said that it looked like I'm down to about 6/32" on the tires, and that he wouldn't recommend risking putting only one tire on. He said he would give me $40/tire for the remaining 3.

So, hooray for me, I get to buy myself a new set of tires the first few days after Christmas. .

Considering it IS the day after Christmas, and my bank account is not the happiest, I'm leaning towards going with the same tire again, although I'm NOT happy with the treadwear. BF Goodrich Traction T/A T. Claimed 60,000 Miles, Look about half worn after 18,000 Miles; However, they are only $57. "Shawn" recommended the Big O aspen tires, which would cost $367 AFTER pro-rating the old 3, but I just have to imagine that he wants to sell those NOT for their outstanding tread life, traction, and low road noise, but because he gets a MUCH better commission on them.

Please feel free to interject your opinions on a good all-season tire in a 205-70-15.

Thanks in advance.


EDIT: PICS BELOW

Does this seem right for 18K Miles???

[OB99W]

My ?'s:

Is it necessary to put in the FWD OD fuse in?

If so, should I even CONSIDER driving it 350 miles over the next couple days up and back to the mountains?

My A's:
1) Put the FWD fuse in place, if you haven't already.
2) Drive carefully, and as little as possible, until you get a relatively matched set of rubber and can remove the fuse.

[Lawsonmh15]

My A's:
1) Put the FWD fuse in place, if you haven't already.
2) Drive carefully, and as little as possible, until you get a relatively matched set of rubber and can remove the fuse.

[/left]

Put the fuse in prior to driving this morning. Babying it as much as possible.

Am going to get the Kumho A/S 795.

Reviews at Tire Rack said that they had good treadwear and are worth triple what they cost. Any Thoughts?

[john in KY]

I replaced a set of BF Goodrich tires on my 66 Dodge Power Wagon a few years ago with a set of Kumhos and absolutely love them. We are talking the difference between night and day. Don't know anything about their car line of tires but they sure know how to build truck tires (285 16, E rating).

[chazmataz]

in response to your pictures: can't quite tell but is there less tread depth in the middle compared to the edges of your tires?????

the first picture is not a good tread depth measuring spot the grooves there will be shallower regardless, it also looks like you might have more wear on the outside edge but there again can't quite tell, which could be a toe wear issue.

i would think that those tires should have lasted longer then 18k miles, but that also depends on how they are wearing, all 4.

if you have alignment wear issues then they are going to wear much faster then they should but it won't be even tire wear either.

[Lawsonmh15]

in response to your pictures: can't quite tell but is there less tread depth in the middle compared to the edges of your tires?????

the first picture is not a good tread depth measuring spot the grooves there will be shallower regardless, it also looks like you might have more wear on the outside edge but there again can't quite tell, which could be a toe wear issue.

i would think that those tires should have lasted longer then 18k miles, but that also depends on how they are wearing, all 4.

if you have alignment wear issues then they are going to wear much faster then they should but it won't be even tire wear either.

That's just it, I've had the tires rotated twice since I bought them, and you're right, the inner has more depth than the outer. I don't know that they have been getting rotated properly. It seems like it takes them very little time before it's finished. (10-15 mins each time.) What is the proper rotation of the tires? I should start marking them before I go in for rotations so I know whether or not these guys have a clue.

I guess you are agreeing with me that the treadwear is quite worn for 18K miles of driving? I'm glad I'll get something for the remaining 3. May need to consider lifetime alignments if I get off the hook for $40 on the tire + road hazard - $8. Like to get out with alignments for <$200.

[OB99W]

Am going to get the Kumho A/S 795.

Reviews at Tire Rack said that they had good treadwear and are worth triple what they cost. Any Thoughts?

I have no personal experience with Kumho tires. Did you read all the reviews? Some reviewers apparently aren't happy with wet/snow performance, while others complained about poor tread life. Those complaints did seem to be in the minority, but obviously "YMMV" is literally the case. BTW, Kumho apparently also sells under the "Marshal" brand name, and the company used to be known as Samyang; perhaps knowing that can help in making a decision.

[chazmataz]

you should have them rotated every 5,000 miles and have the alignment checked once a year plus when they do an alignment check they should be checking out the front of the car. you will get some outside tire wear but if they are rotated on a regular basis it will be less but on the other hand outside tire wear is also an indication of to much toe angle which isn't good and falls under alignment issues. as far as how long it takes to do a rotate, its not very long especially if two guys are doing it and if you look on the inside tire it might/should be marked what end it started at. rotation goes front to back and back to front per side. a 4wheel alignment which is what your car should have will cost you around 75-80 bucks and they shouldn't be charging you if they don't do any adjustments and if your car only needs a simple front toe set should only cost abround 45 bucks.

That's just it, I've had the tires rotated twice since I bought them, and you're right, the inner has more depth than the outer. I don't know that they have been getting rotated properly. It seems like it takes them very little time before it's finished. (10-15 mins each time.) What is the proper rotation of the tires? I should start marking them before I go in for rotations so I know whether or not these guys have a clue.

I guess you are agreeing with me that the treadwear is quite worn for 18K miles of driving? I'm glad I'll get something for the remaining 3. May need to consider lifetime alignments if I get off the hook for $40 on the tire + road hazard - $8. Like to get out with alignments for <$200.

[ferret]

On MY02 Forester I had Kumho Ecsta 716's....They were over 40K and lots of tread left when I traded that...(different story there). They handled great and were very good in the snow. MILES above the stock Bridgestones. They were $42 a piece for 205/70/15's.

I just replaced the factory Geo's on MY04 Forester. The 716's are no longer available, but i got their replacements.....Solus. Now my size is 215/60/16 and were $54 a piece. These once again are an amazing tire and an even more amazing price.

End of my $.02

[OB99W]

That's just it, I've had the tires rotated twice since I bought them, and you're right, the inner has more depth than the outer. I don't know that they have been getting rotated properly. It seems like it takes them very little time before it's finished. (10-15 mins each time.) What is the proper rotation of the tires?

More wear near the shoulders than at the center of the tread can have a couple of possible causes. The first is underinflation; even if you're doing it to spec, it may need a couple more psi. Also, sometimes leaky rims or dropping temerature can mean that the pressure will be down between checks. Another cause might be hard cornering; if tires haven't been rotated, that would show up mostly on the fronts. Misalignment is not likely to be the cause, as long as the wear is fairly symmetrical and similar on all tires. Rather than explaining what happens when camber, toe, etc. are wrong, I found a site that explains it pretty well:
http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm

As far as rotation is concerned, if the spare is a "compact" type, then there are only 4 tires to move during rotation. Since it's not a good idea to change the direction of travel of a radial tire once it's been run for even a brief time, that limits the rotation options. All that can properly be done is to exchange the positions of the front and rear tires, keeping them on the same side of the car, and that doesn't take very long once the vehicle is lifted (even less time if the correct tightening sequence and torque are being ignored ). The only way to cross-switch radials safely (use a front driver's-side tire at the rear passenger position, for example) would require dismounting and "flipping" the tire on the rim, in order to keep the travel direction as before. However, that really isn't practical for a few reasons, including because whitewalls/lettering wind up facing the wrong way.

[chazmataz]

contrary to the old myth (back when radial tires first came out) you can change direction on radial tires, its called cross rotation. as i had pointed out a rotation is front to rear and rear to front is the standard, i never mention putting the spare tire in the rotation pattern.

as was mention he had outside wear that is typical of toe wear if its on all four tires it was also mentioned that the tires have been rotated at one time which would show the wear on both ends of the car but the rear of the car as toe adjustments too, so he could be getting toe at both ends at the same time, which doesn't even take in account if there is a thrust angle issue in the alignment too.

yes hard cornering will cause some wear issues but it does take alot of that at high speeds constantly to cause that kind of wear in short period of time.

yes, underinflation will cause tire wear but it will be on both edges not just one but only a couple of pounds of air pressure won't make a big difference. tempature difference from dead cold in the morning to as much as 5 psi when hot after driving on the freeway.

[xoomer]

Those tire's Look about shot.. I'm not an expert but I did do a stint at a tire shop and the shop (les Shwab) would suggest new tires... There may also be a wear problem there to look into.. Maybe its the sell sell sell tatics that they use.. but still... I would consider replaceing them...

[blatant]

My A's:
1) Put the FWD fuse in place, if you haven't already.
2) Drive carefully, and as little as possible, until you get a relatively matched set of rubber and can remove the fuse.

[/left]

a bit of a side here...let's say this happened to me or someone who doesn't know WHERE the FWD fuse is....where might they find it!!? it'd hate to be i this situation or anything like it and not know where that fuse is located?

thx

[OB99W]

Chazmataz, while you didn't quote me (so I can't be sure you're responding to my post), it seems that you addressed what I said, and your post directly followed mine. Therefore, I'm going to assume that your post was addressed to me or what I said.

contrary to the old myth (back when radial tires first came out) you can change direction on radial tires, its called cross rotation.

"The old myth" has some basis in fact. I admit that opinion seems to be changing concerning the importance of maintaining radial tire travel direction. However, having seen the result of steel-belted radials which were rotated so that the direction of travel was reversed, and not wanting to experience that myself, I'll continue to be conservative about this. My Subaru owner's manual ('99), incidentally, shows only front-to-back/back-to-front rotation.

as i had pointed out a rotation is front to rear and rear to front is the standard, i never mention putting the spare tire in the rotation pattern.

Hmmm, I never said you mentioned the spare; in fact, my previous post in this thread was in response to the original poster, and not to anything you said.

as was mention he had outside wear that is typical of toe wear if its on all four tires it was also mentioned that the tires have been rotated at one time which would show the wear on both ends of the car but the rear of the car as toe adjustments too, so he could be getting toe at both ends at the same time, which doesn't even take in account if there is a thrust angle issue in the alignment too.

Sorry, but excessive toe by itself doesn't typically cause significant outside wear. In effect, wheels that are toed (in or out) get dragged somewhat sideways while rotating. That causes excessive wear, but it's mainly parallel to the road surface, straight across the tire (unless there is also a camber problem). Depending on the severity of the toe, there can be noticable "feathering", and with radials, even some diagonal banding across the tread. Those patterns change direction depending on whether the toe is "in" or "out". The pictures may not have been good enough to see those things, but they aren't apparent to me. Actually, brushing one's hand over the tread is a better way of detecting that kind of problem.

yes hard cornering will cause some wear issues but it does take alot of that at high speeds constantly to cause that kind of wear in short period of time.

The amount of weight that front engine/drive put on the front wheels doesn't require much lean before the shoulder area of a tire gets rounded, especially on tires with soft "performance" compounding.

yes, underinflation will cause tire wear but it will be on both edges not just one but only a couple of pounds of air pressure won't make a big difference. tempature difference from dead cold in the morning to as much as 5 psi when hot after driving on the freeway.

That's why correct inflation pressure is given "cold"; the expected increase is taken into account. A tire that's underinflated when cold will be a tire that's underinflated when hot.

Anyone disagreeing with what I said should read my sig . I'll even refund what I charged .

[Storydude1]

Changing the direction tires spin is not a good idea when 90% of tires nowadays are DIRECTIONAL.

The last 5 tire sets I bought had BIG arrows on the sidewall stating "Direction of Rotation"

[tcspeer]

Why worry so much about putting a tire on your car when you need it? If I need a tire and the other three are only half worn out I put it on. I have 302,000 miles of postal del on this car. It is a 1997 2.2 legacy wagon. In the early 90's Subaru and the Rural Carrier Association worked out a deal to sell letter carriers Subaru at a really low price so their is a lot of these in our craft, alot of them are high mileage like mine. I have not heard of any carriers having the kind of problems that is talked about here. We ruin tires all the time in our line of work but we dont buy a new set every time we run over something. If you get medicine from the Dr. and read all of the bad things that can happen in the side affects than you would not ever take medicine. I joined this board about three years ago had I not been replacing my tires one at a time if needed for over 200,000 miles at the time I would been so scared by this I would have bought a new set every time I ruined one. Their is bigger things to worry about then putting a tire on your car when you need it. However go ahead because sure enough if you take my advice you will ruin something and then I would feel bad but for me Iam not buying a new set when one tire goes bad.

[chazmataz]

well, to everyone i'm sorry. you guys can go about doing things the way you do things. i'm tired of getting into a pissing match. i personally was trying to help someone out by what i know, have seen and have experienced in my everyday life. yes, some of what has been said is true but i didn't want to get into a complex discussion for the average person to try and understand but it has turned into that, that wasn't what this post was all about, this is not a debate so i'm going to stop. again i'm sorry for this being dragged out and for the way it seemed like i was attacking some people, hopefully there are no hard feelings.

yes, directional tires are just that but i wasn't refering to directional tires and i wasn't implying that you should change your tires around going in a different rotation just saying that its not as big of a thing as it was 20-30 years ago, tire technology has gone along way since radial tires first came out.

[tcspeer]

I agree with you I rotate my tires, front and back and left and right and have not had any trouble. If you have a flat on the right front and then fix it and put it in the spare compartment and next have a flat on the left side and put the spare on it is going the other direction. I even have the trustly 39.00 dollar manuel tire changer from Harbor Freight and flip the tire if the inside starts to get chewed from going on and off of the pavement so much.

well, to everyone i'm sorry. you guys can go about doing things the way you do things. i'm tired of getting into a pissing match. i personally was trying to help someone out by what i know, have seen and have experienced in my everyday life. yes, some of what has been said is true but i didn't want to get into a complex discussion for the average person to try and understand but it has turned into that, that wasn't what this post was all about, this is not a debate so i'm going to stop. again i'm sorry for this being dragged out and for the way it seemed like i was attacking some people, hopefully there are no hard feelings.

yes, directional tires are just that but i wasn't refering to directional tires and i wasn't implying that you should change your tires around going in a different rotation just saying that its not as big of a thing as it was 20-30 years ago, tire technology has gone along way since radial tires first came out.

[OB99W]

a bit of a side here...let's say this happened to me or someone who doesn't know WHERE the FWD fuse is....where might they find it!!? it'd hate to be i this situation or anything like it and not know where that fuse is located?

thx

Blatant, I answered your Qs in the thread about the FWD fuse. See:
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?p=392973