FlyB0y Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 ************UP-DATE************** ... the listings below are BREAK strength not working strength as I thought befor ... and 10,000 lb break strength is about what we should have for subarus ... Ok, here's some interesting info for all you 2000lb winch guys :cool: http://www.neropes.com/techdata/multilineii.htm I was trying to find some sort of light, inexpensive synthetic winch line, and most of what I found was incredibly strong (10,000 working load is a bit more than I need :-p ) and equally expensive. Here is a 3-strand composite rope the construction combines filament and staple/spun polyester. This rope is designed for use with winches, and other rigging/hoisting applications. Best of all, I found it at my local Quality Supply (ranch supply store) for just $0.30 per foot! 100 feet weigh just 3.6 pounds, and I am planning on using this rope in a 2 ton block and tackle which has a lifting power ratio of 7:1 therefore, it only takes 571 pounds of force to pull it's working load of 4000 pounds (2 tons). Now, I will have to try this out and report back once I it all together, and eventually I may even replace the 50' of cable on my winch with it once it gets old. I'm sure that I won't fit 50' of 3/8 rope on a winch that has 50' of 5/32 cable, but I will have to see how much I can when the time comes. P.S. I am in no way any kind of expert in any of this, just info I am passing on to like-minded peeps ... I have only gone with the 2000lb winch at the recommendation of a friend who will remain nameless unless he wishes to join the discussion, the block and tackle I am adding with the extra info I have learned here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezapar Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Actually, 10k is about what you need, hardly more than you need. It is recommended that you have 3X the strength of the vehicle you'll be towing with it.I have 16k straps, they don't weigh very much either. 20ft and 40ft lengths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballitch Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 you wont be able to fit even 25ft of the composite line onto your winch 3/8= 12/32 and since you have 5/32 cable on there now, 12 is greater than 5 by more than double, so you might not even be able to 22 ft of comp. line onto winch, and for block and tackle setup is not anywhere near the amount of line you are going to need, unless you get stuck 8 ft form a tree, your going to be screwed unless you can add more line somehow. I.E. tow straps or what-have-you. ~Josh~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 you wont be able to fit even 25ft of the composite line onto your winch 3/8= 12/32 and since you have 5/32 cable on there now, 12 is greater than 5 by more than double, so you might not even be able to 22 ft of comp. line onto winch, and for block and tackle setup is not anywhere near the amount of line you are going to need, unless you get stuck 8 ft form a tree, your going to be screwed unless you can add more line somehow. I.E. tow straps or what-have-you. ~Josh~ Granted, the original plan was to leave the cable as-is on the winch, and have the blocks attached with the cable hook through a loop on the rope. So, say you are 30' from a suitable tree, make some loops around the tree with the recovery strap, hook that to the outer block, and the winch to the inner block ... given that the pull needed to put 4000lbs to the tree is only 572lbs from the winch, and each line on the individual pullies on the blocks are also 572lbs, why wouldn't rope rated at 3200 be adequit? And yes, I would have to re-set the blocks every 8' but if I'm stuck, and that first pull doesn't do it to get me rolling easier, then I guess I will have to do it 8' at a time and learn not to go on something I get stuck so easily ... I'm not really looking to take my brat in mud-bogs or pull it up over rocks, just to get it out of the ruts I may have made in something much less difficult. But I agree, your right not much of that roap is gonna go on the winch, but there again, I can always daisy-chain a few ropes to make the distance, I'm just more interested in keeping this stuff light, I don't want a winch that weighs more than my bumper and I am cheap! (as long as I have the job I have now ... hopefully by this spring that problem will be rectified :cool: ) Here is a kewl explaination of how the block and tackle work that I found http://science.howstuffworks.com/pulley.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefy Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 3200lbs should be ok i think... the standard for rope has a breaking point of 10x its load limit... so the rope shouldn't break until it reaches 32,000lbs... you winch should/would crap out before it reaches that limit... although i don't really have any off-road experience to go off of... i just know the numbers...:-p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storydude1 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 4X safety factor. PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE YOU GET HURT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahDL88 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 4X safety factor. PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE YOU GET HURT Excellent write up, thanks for the link. Maybe we could get this in the sticky? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted January 12, 2006 Author Share Posted January 12, 2006 Excellent write up, thanks for the link. Maybe we could get this in the sticky? I second that ... ty Storydude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storydude1 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 I second that ... ty Storydude Not a problem. Seen FAR too many mistakes made in recovery. Only problem is the mistakes might be minor, but the results can be deadly. God forgives....High velocity metal does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahDL88 Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 My friends Uncle got almost cut in half when a plane landing on his carrier cut the landing wire, half of him was in the catch net, and the other half was dangling over the side. He survived, and has had minimal long term effects, but let that be a lesson to you all. BE SAFE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 omg .... what a difference this artical makes ... I now realize while operating the winch I will need to be guiding the cable so that it doesn't bind on the reel, I'm not willing to be in the bite of the line for anything less than running with a load of less than 20% of the rated break strength of the line ... is there any kind of mechanical device that would properly wind the line on the reel with-out needing someone in direct path of a the potentially whipping brocken line? Here is my other question, if understanding the artical correctly, I can assume that my brat fully loaded will weigh 3000lbs (I really think it's more like 2500, but saying 3000 to be safe) ... now if I am stuck to the frame in mud, it should take 3x that weight's worth of power to pull it out ... that means 9000lbs!! and if I need a safety factor of 4x, just where are you going to find cable/synth line with a break strength of 36,000lbs!!! AND have the weight of the line it's self less than 500lbs?! am I right with these numbers? and that is with a safety factor of 4 ... and it is recommending that you have a line that is not subjected to more than 20% of it's rated break strength if someone will be in the bite of the line, which I would be I guess, making sure the line feeds properly ... that means you would need a line rated at 45,000lbs!!! Please tell me I am wrong here somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storydude1 Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 omg .... what a difference this artical makes ... I now realize while operating the winch I will need to be guiding the cable so that it doesn't bind on the reel, I'm not willing to be in the bite of the line for anything less than running with a load of less than 20% of the rated break strength of the line ... is there any kind of mechanical device that would properly wind the line on the reel with-out needing someone in direct path of a the potentially whipping brocken line? Here is my other question, if understanding the artical correctly, I can assume that my brat fully loaded will weigh 3000lbs (I really think it's more like 2500, but saying 3000 to be safe) ... now if I am stuck to the frame in mud, it should take 3x that weight's worth of power to pull it out ... that means 9000lbs!! and if I need a safety factor of 4x, just where are you going to find cable/synth line with a break strength of 36,000lbs!!! AND have the weight of the line it's self less than 500lbs?! am I right with these numbers? and that is with a safety factor of 4 ... and it is recommending that you have a line that is not subjected to more than 20% of it's rated break strength if someone will be in the bite of the line, which I would be I guess, making sure the line feeds properly ... that means you would need a line rated at 45,000lbs!!! Please tell me I am wrong here somewhere Ok, you are wrong. 1. Winches only get rated pull at the first layer of rope. first layer is about 5 feet of rope. 2. The winch will pull and wrap nice under load. it's free spooling back in that you need to guide it to prevent birds-nesting. 3. 36K Lbs is about right for the rope on a 8K winch for breaking limit. Check out Milemarker.com, and request the free DVD showing winch rope breaking limits(used as a demo of MM's Hydro winch power, but works good as an example) 4. Safety factor of 4 is for rigging equipment..not just the rope. Figure a 2K pull, means you'd need at least a 8K rated snatch block. Better off with a 10K. Just like D-rings..8K and 10K are within 10 bucks of eachother. Overkill is nice. You'll stall that HF winch before snapping the line assuming a good clean rope. Now you understand why Tow Trucks have 12K, and 24K Ramsey Hydro winches on them, and run 1" cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 Ok, you are wrong. Can I get a HALLELUJA!!! :clap: I'm soooooo glad to here that I won't be needing a tow-truck wench for my brat I'm still going to try my wench/block & tackle combo but with high strength rope, maybe I can get some synth line to run all the way through them both, can't have a winch line rated at 8k matched with rope rated at 3200 ... will have to see what else is available ... just not sure if I can afford the $150/ 100ft 10k rated line yet, but we will see ... I don't plan on really going into areas where I could expect to get stuck up to my doors in mud ... mostly like to see what obstacles I can crawl over and ruts/kelly humps I can pick my way around ... mainly excited about the posibilities with 4.44 gears P.S. anyone know how I can get the break strength of the cable on my 2000lb HF winch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storydude1 Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Can I get a HALLELUJA!!! :clap: I'm soooooo glad to here that I won't be needing a tow-truck wench for my brat Oh, you still might. mud sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 Oh, you still might. mud sucks. Tru, tru ... but untill I can afford a $500 winch, I will have to stick with my HF one with the 2ton block and tackle ... that still gives me the min 1.5 wench strength for weight of a 2500lb vehicle, (assuming it IS only 2500 ... gonna have to check on a scale then see what tools I will have to leave behind ) definately going to have to find the strength of the wire rope on the winch, no use having strong cable and weak rope, just takes one to break and turn that hook and/or cable into something deadly P.S. I am a bit confused about the break strength rating on the MM site .. is that different than the minimum break force of 9,800lbs on the 8k winch rope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storydude1 Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Tru, tru ... but untill I can afford a $500 winch, I will have to stick with my HF one with the 2ton block and tackle ... that still gives me the min 1.5 wench strength for weight of a 2500lb vehicle, (assuming it IS only 2500 ... gonna have to check on a scale then see what tools I will have to leave behind ) definately going to have to find the strength of the wire rope on the winch, no use having strong cable and weak rope, just takes one to break and turn that hook and/or cable into something deadly P.S. I am a bit confused about the break strength rating on the MM site .. is that different than the minimum break force of 9,800lbs on the 8k winch rope? It's MM propaganda...Take it with a grain of salt. Get the video, and watch it. It'll make you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 It's MM propaganda...Take it with a grain of salt. Get the video, and watch it. It'll make you think. Ok now I 'm really confused (but I am sober) If you need a rope rated at 36k, then does a MM winch come with grossly inadequit rope? and if so what rope would you buy to replace it? is "brake force" a different term than "break strength" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefy Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 alright... my dad used to sell this stuff for a living... what should be written on the box or whatever it comes in will tell you its maximum working load... its breaking point is 10x that of the max working load... its the industry standard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyB0y Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 nice! so then my 2000lb winch's line should be rated for 20k break strength? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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