Todd C Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Well I confirmed combustion gasses in the radiator last night... I had to run the car around the block a few times until it started to overheat and then vent the gasses into the overflow to test them. Interesting thing is I sniffed the fumes from the radiator afterwards and it smelled like exhaust fumes, maybe I came up with an unsophisticated test method... So, anyway, I guess I have to at least pull the heads and have them checked for flatness and tested for cracks. The question is, with 116k miles what else needs to be done? I figure at least a valve job. I don't want to spend more than I have to, but I plan on keeping the car for quite a while yet. I really expected more from this car though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theotherskip Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 a valve job is usually NOT recommended. as the engine wears the engine gets "looser", gradually loosing compression. if you get a valve job, you will be strengthing the top end, but with an old bottom end. this added strain on the bottom end can blow it out, or at least add to your oil comsumption. if a valve job is neeed, it is best to do the whole block as well. but with 116k, you should be fine to just put it back together, after adjusting the valve clearances. other good maintenance would include: timing belt (unless changed at 100k) oil pump o-ring & reseal cam & crank seals water pump (again if not already changed) some will say to also change the tensioner, but i fall more along the belief that it can make it to the 180k belt change. just be sure that they (or you) check all the idlers for smoothness and that they don't sound dry. you can have new valve oil seals done when you have the heads checked. alltogether having the heads checked for warpage, my flywheel ground and new valve oil seals only ran me $70 at a machine shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 With all due respect, I strongly disagree with the previous post. While it may be true that an engine looses compression with age, the compression loss would come from worn rings or cylinder wall distortion. A valve either seals, or it doesn't; minimal passage of superheated exhaust gas between the seat and the valve will burn the valve/seat in short order! This is not to say I'd recommend a valve grind on an engine that only needs a head gasket. If it were mine (and the engine ran well before loosing a head gasket), I'd remove the heads and visually check the valve guides through the intake/exhaust ports for oil build-up resulting from bad seals/worn guides and check the head for warpage. A poor-mans way to check for valve sealing is to pour solvent into the intake & exhaust ports and look for leakage between the valve and the seat. Just one mans opinion............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganM Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I'm with Phillip on this one. I would get the valves re seated if they looked pited up and the valve seats looked worn. Good call on checking the vavle stems thorugh the ports to see if they show signs of valve guide wear. theotherskip's suggestions on what else should be attended to is dead on. Now is the time to take care of those things. Since you will be taking off (or atleast moving aside) the intake manifold you will also need gaskets for that and the coolant crossover tube. If you end up doing the timing belt check the condition of your tesnioner pullie(s?) When you get this deep into an engine its time to dig up sekeltons and really see what all is wearing out and what needs attention. Just go over everything as you are working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theotherskip Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 interesting... seems to go against what i read when i was researching what to do with my car, but i'll be damned if i can find any of the articles i read a while ago. i'll try searching, and will post links if i can find any of them. most seemed to say on a higher mileage engine, you should usually do rings with a valve job, otherwise you will be looking for increased oil consumption and possible bottom end failure. this is not to say that if it needs a valve job it shouldn't be done, rather that if it looks ok, don't think you will be helping it by getting the valves reground... you can get away without removing the coolant crossover tube, but if you get the gasket kit, it includes new o-rings, so it is best to do it while you are there. the kit is really the best way to go, because you can renew just about all of the gaskets & o-rings on the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 the machinist. They know when you need to do major service if they see heads every day. I had forgotten the old tricks to check by inspecting. In Maine when I was a teenager we used to put kerosene in the intake and exhaust on heads to see if valves were sealing, and pop the springs off and grind them with a hand grinder and compound. most of these suckers start burning oil after doing a valve job because they already have high mileage by the time the valves go. If you get up to about 100,000 to 150,000 miles what do you expect? On my subaru forester I had the heads disassembled and the valves ground when the head gaskets leaked. Several thousand miles later it uses a half pint to an oil change which I figure is about right for approaching 100,000 miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd C Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 I think I'll wait until I can see the condition of the valves before I decide whether to do anything with them. I'd rather not do something that's not needed, but I just assumed that a valve job would be recommended. I'll do the rest of the items that Theotherskip recommended. I have heard also of problems with oil consumption if you redo valves without touching the bottom end. My car has shown no signs of any problems or oil consumption (almost never have to add oil between changes) except for the occasional overheat. Funny thing is (in a sad sort of way) that I just finished putting it back together after doing the clutch in August. Wish I knew then that I had a head gasket problem, I was probably half way there... thanks for all the suggestions/comments. Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 As a professional automobile mechanic with more than 33-years in the business, (primarily GM & Ford background) I have heard the myth that grinding valves will result in 'blowing-out' the bottom end many times. I too have seen oil consumption increase after the heads were removed to replace gaskets or grind valves. In nearly all cases, the engine was either badly overheated or had signs that glycol (anti-freeze) had been introduced into the combustion chamber. Either of these cases will damage rings, pistons, and cylinder walls. The valve grind gets the blame for the increased oil consumption, but in reality, the leaking head gaskets caused other damage that didn't show up until reassembly. I don't doub't for a second that many of us have heard and seen this myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 To the discovery Channel? They have the Mythbusters show with those two mad scientists who would love this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99obw Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I chose not to grind the valves when I did the headgaskets on our outback last spring. It had 118k miles on it. I don't think this car will last long enough for me to care at some point in the future about not having ground the valves. I am guessing that this engine should make it to 200k miles. I have taken lesser makes to 200k without ever doing anything. If I have more engine troubles after that I will probably replace the engine rather than fix it, or get rid of the car. The more head gasket posts I read the more I hate that 2.5L POS sitting in the driveway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 discount on head gaskets? As Subaru says "what head gaskets?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theotherskip Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 that totally sucks that you just did a clutch. it definately makes pulling the engine worthwhile if you have to do the clutch. it seems like there has really been a rash of head gaskets failing lately. i know those who have had it fail tend to make a lot of noise, but there do seem to be a lot of us. i'm really feeling pretty crappy about subaru's handling of the whole problem... i wish i had more financial mobility to go diesel vw... but i think i'm in this one for a while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 head gaskets and should be good fro a while. That's what I tell myself anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commuter Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 If it's any comfort, I've got almost 60k miles on my new headgaskets. 97 OB. Fingers crossed. My dealer did a lot of head gaskets on the Phase I engine in 2002. I was told that things had pretty much 'dried up' earlier this year. I know that there are failures as well on the Phase II engine. One seems to be hearing of this now and again along with some of the newer Phase I's (eg 1999). Commuter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 and I bought it becuase I thought it had a lot less chance of head gasket trouble. Here in CA we just got DMV fees tripled and in the Bay Area we were forced to go to dyno smog checks at three times the cost. I figured if I cut down to two cars and kept 99 as the top end I would save a fair amount of money. There will be no raises in my field for the forseeable future so saving where you can is good. Arnie just got elected and says he will roll beck the vehicle tax, but we'll see. I actually thought that based on things I had heard that I would buy a 99 Subaru and put very little money in it for several years. Curses, foiled again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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