SubaruGirl Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 okay don't beat me up, I don't know much about cars, Subaru or otherwise, but I'm trying to do some reasearch so I don't get taken for a ride. I have a 96 Legacy Outback, rear wheels are binding up during slow speed tight turns like in parking lots. I had my "backyard" mechanic check out, brakes, CV, etc all are fine. I took it to a dealer for diagnostic. They tell me its the Transfer Clutch Solenoid (I don't have the code # handy) They quoted big bucks for repair. I have called 8 small tranny shops around, most tell me they won't touch, one gave me higher price than the dealer! One gave me very low quote which scared me almost as much as the high quote (how can he be so much cheaper?- does he know what he's doing?) Does anyone know exactly WHAT a Transfer Clutch Solenoid is, what it involves to change and what will happen if I keep driving as is?? The Outback is my daughter's car, we've only had it 3 months, I really like it and had been seriously considering trading my car for a 04 Outback but this is turning me off. Why can't I find anyone to work on a Subaru? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Does you AT Oil Temp light flash after you start the car? If not there are no codes stored. If this is the case I recomend servicing the transmission & adding some limited slip addative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intrigueing Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Check the tire circumference prior to doing any trans work, and you could always insert the FWD fuse and drive it 2wd. I think I have seen the job at 800 dollars or so, what prices did you get quoted? Make sure the person isn't doing their first subaru trans, search the archives for more detailson the repair - my bind was fixed by new tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Yes, tires are the first thing to check, if the dealer didn't already check them. If they didn't that's probably not the place to be taking your car. If the AT Oil Temp light is flash to indicate a stored code & there is a code for the Transfer Clutch Solinoid it will be an expensive fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaruGirl Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 Yes the AT Oil Temp light was flashing at start-up but not since I had the diagnostic done, so I assume they cleared the codes. One tranny place did tell me about inserting a fuse under hood to disable the 4WD. Can you explain how this would help me know for sure it's the trans clutch solenoid. Or would the only reason to disable be to save further damage until I get it fixed. Price quoted from the dealer was $650. Only local tranny place that sounded like they actually knew what they were talking about was $800. Cheapest price quote was $200 (I think he's clue-less) Just got a call back from Subaru repair shop 50+ miles away of $550 I do need to get new snow tires on it for winter, should I do that first? Since I took it to a regular Subaru dealer for diagnostic and they got the transfer clutch solenoid code can I assume the tires are not an issue? I think I'm gonna love this board! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intrigueing Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 The Fuse disables the transfer clutch solenoid, and makes the car 2WD - regardless of the cause, Put in the fuse to avoid further damage. Remember, just because it is binding does not mean it is the transfer clutch, it just means the AWD is kicking in when it shouldn't. How do the tires look? If you are replacing them anyway, do it before the trans, and see if the problem goes away. Bad tires will cause wear on the drivetrain. As WA says change the trans fluid (and also the diff fluid) and add some limited slip additive to the trans. And I wouldn't think of spending a dime on the problem without jacking up the car and measuring the circumference of all of the tires. See http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/drivetrain/RearAxleBindingInfoF99.pdf Don't expect the dealer to check this, they want to get an expensive repair out of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commuter Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I have a 97 Legacy Outback, automatic. I'm not fully up on the mechanics of this area, but offer up this. The clutch pack (in the tail end of the transmission, connects to the center drive shaft to the rear wheels) is what provides the car with AWD. These have been known to go bad for a couple of reasons. If this needs replacing, the dollars I've typically seen mentioned is around $800 US as a prior post indicated. The solenoid is what controls the clutch pack. It engages the clutch pack, sending more torque to the rear wheels when slippage is detected. I don't know the repair cost of this item, but I would expect it to be significantly less. Unless that solenoid is awfully expensive. Can anyone comment? Do put the FWD fuse in immediately. You can drive indefinitely like this without harm. (That is, assuming it functions properly.) If the binding goes away, you know that you have isolated the problem to the center clutch pack area, but it still doesn't tell you exactly what is wrong. I don't know if the 'code' for the solenoid is "smart" enough to know whether it is the solenoid itself, or something else. (Eg - I got an EGR code earlier this year. There was nothing wrong with the EGR. It was a sensor that TESTS the EGR. ) Do check the tire sizes as mentioned. The only sure way I know is to jack the wheel up fully and wrap a tape measure around it. Make sure the tire pressure is correct. Subaru's specs only allow for 1/4" difference of the circumference. Even if the tires are the same make and model, with apparent similar wear, there can be this difference, or more. You can try changing out the fluids in the differentials. Not likely to solve your problems, but if you don't have the car's service history, I'd do it anyway. Personally, I prefer synthetic gear oils. A question - Can someone tell me if that center clutch pack is dry or wet? I've never been sure. A change of the transmission fluid is not a bad idea either for the same reasons mentioned above. Good luck. Let us know how you make out. Commuter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 The clutch pack is wet. Looks just like a motorcycle clutch. Early Legacy's had problems with the Transfer clutch solinoids, clutch packs, & transmission housings. Seems that after '94 they got those problems ironed out. If you know you need tires, get tires. If the trans light dosen't start flashing agin, do the trans service. Alot of people have had good luck with the fluid change & limited slip additive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaruGirl Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 We had parked the car and not used since I got the diagnostic for fear of doing further damage. Now thanks to all of you I at least have a direction. First thing I will put in FWD fuse, get new tires now instead of waiting (but measure the existing ones as a matter of interest), I will have the trans & differencial fluids changed (which I should have had done already since I bought it used with 100,000 mi and most likely was an auction purchase) and the limited slip additive. Did I miss anything? One more question, since the diagnostic DID show the code for transfer clutch solenoid can I assume that there IS a problem there or can I still hope that the tires & tran service will take care of the binding? As a note of interest, my daughter remembered that the binding was noticed about the same time as we had a slack tire on rear. The binding is what made me notice the tire but I took care of that and still had the binding. Maybe I didn't get the air exactly right. Maybe that tire has a problem but has needed air only that one time? Thanks again for your great help. I'll be sure and let you know the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93leg Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I have experienced the same binding on my 92 legacy. I have questioned the Dealer about the binding and they also recommended replacing the Duty Solenoid, a few o-rings, and while you're in there the complete clutch pack depending on mileage. The solenoid costs around $80.00, but you must separate the motor/transaxle to install these parts. One question I had asked him was "I understand the duty solenoid regulates the pressure to the clutch pack, but what signals the duty solenoid"? There has to be a sensor, or sensors that monitor front and rear rpms and send that information to the TCU. I have been told by a private "Subaru Only" used car dealership that if you replace the speed sensor, that will take care of it. I have not yet repaired mine, but it does seem to me that there would be other sensors involved. Tire pressure and condition are the first thing to check for though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 If you drive the car and it sets another code for the TC solenoid, most likly there is a problem with the solenoid. The computer moniters the electrical circuit. If it detects an open circuit (broken wire, bad connection, open solenoid winding) or short circuit, (broken or rubed through wire ground out) there is a code set. So if there is a code for the TC solenoid, the problem could be in the wiring from the computer to the solenoid, wiring harness connector or the solenoid itself. Most likly the solenoid. Wiring problems aren't real common (unless the car has been in a wreck). There are so many things that can cause this binding that it is going to take so cash outlay to get to the botom of it. But if you are going to keep the car for sure & have it fixed, I say do the tires, if they are almost worn out or unevenly worn, or measure differnt diamiter, replace them. Drive the car for awhile, see what happens. If problem goes away, great. If binding is still there and Trans oil light starts flashing agin, have codes pulled. If the TC solenoid is bad have that fixed and you will get the trans fluid replaced in the pocess. If Trans light dosen't indicate any codes being set after driving it for a few days and binding is still there have the trans service done. Is that all about as clear as mud?:eh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaruGirl Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 You guys have been great, now if ya just lived in Maine. Yes WAWalker I clearly understood your mud. Are you saying that I could have the TC solenoid replaced for $600 and still not solve the problem? I guess I'm looking for assurances before I spend that kind of money. Replaced the tires, old ones measured darn close but needed snow tires anyway. Still binding on sharp slow turns. AT Oil light is flashing at start-up again. What would be the point in spending another $50 for diagnostic, wouldn't they just pull the same code again? BIG QUESTION: I put in the FWD fuse and it is not working! Indicator light does not come on and it is still 4 wheel. What does that tell me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 HERE'S 2 WAGs (wild @ss guesses); 1. The fuse you used is too small or bad(20 amp required I think?) 2. The failure mode for the solenoid is 'full transfer' and is not being disabled by the fuse.(seems unlikely). I'd confirm you have a good 20 amp (check the manual for proper size) fuse in there. An Autozone employee could probably check it with an ohmmeter. thanx for replying and good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaruGirl Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 couldn't find fuse size in manual. Really vague, not sure I would have even figured out I had that option if I hadn't read it here. Used a 15 amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Solenoid on 12 Volts to solenoid puts it in 2WD. Solenoid off no power to solenoid is full transfer. The 2WD fuse supplies the TCM with a ground. The TCM then sends a full 12 Volts to the TC solenoid. So technically it could be a bad TCM. There needs to be more diagnoises done to nail down the problem. There needs to be a test for power to solenoid. And a resistance test of the solenoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaruGirl Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 at the risk of showing my ignorance...is the 15 amp too small? Guy here at work checked and said there is power to the solenoid, but it is still 4wd. So why is the FWD fuse not workign? This is really frustrating for me since I can't find a mechanic around here that will do anything except tell me they will put in new TCsolonoid for $600 with no guarantees that will solve the problem. Maybe there is more than one issue here? And how long would it take me to get to Montana? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 15 AMP is the proper fuse. If in fact there is power to the TC Solenoid with the fuse in, then the solenoid is most likly bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaruGirl Posted November 3, 2003 Author Share Posted November 3, 2003 My Subaru did not make it home Friday night:boohoo: About 2 miles from work realized that the speedometer and the odometer were not working. Can I assume that my co-worker hit a wire when checking for power to the solenoid or possibly just coincidence? Got about 5 mi from work, as I accelerated up a hill engine began to rev up, tach between 4-5 and only going 40 mph. At first I thought it has slipped into Neutral then realized trans slipping......severely! Next morning got a friend to check it out, took out FWD fuse, checked trans fluid (full, looks good, doesn't smell burnt.) he drove the car the remaining 10 mi to my house. What's your take on all this? I think it's time to give up and go ahead and spend the bucks for TC solenoid. IF it is no longer slipping (could the fuse cause that?) wondering if I need to hire a flat-bed to get it to the Subaru shop (approx 50 mi) or should I go ahead and try to drive it. Luckily it's not my only means of transportation cause it's spent most of the last few weeks parked. Thanks for all your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dashton Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Sounds like you’ve verified that the duty C solenoid (transfer clutch solenoid) has failed. This solenoid is a fail open version, which means that when it loses power it opens all the way up and ports fluid to the rear transfer clutch, locking it up in 4WD. That’s why the fuse has no effect – normally the fuse tells the computer to put voltage to the solenoid, closing it and disconnecting the rear wheels. With a bad solenoid it will always be open regardless of the voltage applied. They’re designed this way so that if the solenoid fails you don’t lose your AWD and can get back home. I have a little experience with this – my AWD doesn’t work at all and the only way I can lock up the rear wheels is flip a switch I installed in the solenoid supply wire. When you open the switch the solenoid loses power and opens, thereby locking up the rear wheels. Just for your info – it’s a pretty easy replacement. I’ve had mine apart trying to figure out what’s wrong with it and it’s not too hard to replace. As for the trans slipping, could be several things. You should probably start with a fluid and filter change (along with the solenoid) and go from there. Good luck! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy777 Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 i didn't read all of the posts, but I would suggest changing the tranny fluid if it hasn't been changed recently to see if that elminates or reduces the binding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcklck Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 I had a similar experience. The AT light was blinking 16 times at start-up. Took it to a dealer, they said it's a solenoid, or it's the differential. Turned out to be the differential, and the price to fix was $1950.00. So if they are telling you it's solenoid, think LUCKY! Could have been the differential. And if the open it up to fix it, and OOPS! it's the differential, then the price goes way up!! larry.k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopperbob925 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I have a 1997 Impreza Auto trans. 180k . Problem.. under load in a straight line the car vibarates. Its not the driveline U joints, checked them. Its not a CV axle checked them. I put the FWD fuse in and out and still has the same Viberation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Foulard Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I had binding at 16K on my 94 H6 and they ended up replacing the duty C and the purge valve. In the end this sorted me out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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