89 replies to this topic

[grossgary]

risk? what if something jams your timing belt covers into the belt and breaks it? and before you laugh, ive seen that happen but never had any broken "open" belts. do i say the covers are a risk and should be removed to increase reliability? no, just take your pick and move on, the tiny chances you're taking issue with are miniscule.

[GeneralDisorder]

Does this mean I should take BACK the $84 gasket set I bought? ... I have never spent so much money on such a small bag of teeenie weenie little gaskets in my life! That would make my day, and I'd use the money to buy a PS Pump ...

Q? ... What if you're like me kinda anal like me and you like to power-wash the motor on occasion? ... I assume simply wet is not a problem?

Yikes - that's a fortune that you should try to recover at all costs. Besides they are rarely needed.

Water will not hurt them.

When you reassemble, should you choose to use the covers, toss the bolts off a bridge and use zip-ties in their place to hold the front covers on. This way you won't have trouble getting the bolts out later.

GD

[Davalos]

When you reassemble, should you choose to use the covers, toss the bolts off a bridge and use zip-ties in their place to hold the front covers on. This way you won't have trouble getting the bolts out later.

Maybe I should toss the bolts at the counter-guy who sold me the gaskets ...

[keltik]

Am now running my EJ without covers, so far 3 miles and no problems. After water blasting the engine bay to get all the old grease and crap out it still runs, and from the look of the cracked worn belt - and the whining from an unhappy idler, it was worth me getting in there.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

risk? what if something jams your timing belt covers into the belt and breaks it? and before you laugh, ive seen that happen but never had any broken "open" belts. do i say the covers are a risk and should be removed to increase reliability? no, just take your pick and move on, the tiny chances you're taking issue with are miniscule.

... Could be anything gettin stuck in there. ...

Well... Today, an old Friend called me, to ask ´bout where to Find Cheapest Timin´ Belts for his Girlfriend´s Subie, it is a 1987 Loyale EA82 Wagon, he Told me that her Brother did took off the Timin´ Belt Covers since last Year, (They where broked) so She drived the Subie just with the Rear Part of ´em.

He told me that a "Floatin´ Plastic Bag" that someone did drift on the Highway, went inside the engine´s bay and somehow did "Roll" itself in one of the Timin´ Belts and the engine started to emit some loud noises... then the Engine Stopped... :-\ due to a Damaged Timin´ Belt.

He said it wasn´t Break, just did Slip some Pulley´s theet and it did cut off some of the Belt´s Theet...

Well... How are the Chances to This to Happen? ... I think that it sound Around a Nightmare, but He did swear that.

I Personally think that maybe a Plastic Bag Wasn´t the Cause, just a Coincidence, but due to the Own Nature of the Things that Happened, I Posted that Story here... so, that´s another "Thing" to count in order to Keep the Covers on...

so, Yay!

[psylosyfer]

Yeah it seem's that the threaded inserts in the covers are alway's "free spinning" when you try to take them off.
Has anyone found a cure for this? Like maybe epoxy or loctite while their
off so "Next time" won't be so bad?

[DaveT]

Yeah it seem's that the threaded inserts in the covers are alway's "free spinning" when you try to take them off.
Has anyone found a cure for this? Like maybe epoxy or loctite while their
off so "Next time" won't be so bad?

I have fixed a few. Drilled a small hole through the plastic and the insert - where it won't interfere with the bolt - put a piece of wire through the hole & around. Use anti seize when re assembling. Don't over tighten them.

[GeneralDisorder]

Yeah it seem's that the threaded inserts in the covers are alway's "free spinning" when you try to take them off.
Has anyone found a cure for this? Like maybe epoxy or loctite while their
off so "Next time" won't be so bad?

Simple - use zip ties instead of the bolts.

GD

[grossgary]

i vote for zipties as well.

i'm doubtful of the plastic bag story, but it doesn't matter, there's no need to agree. there is no right or wrong answer. oppinions have been layed out, let people make up their own mind, there's no need to convince everyone to do the same thing.

i've seen a D/S cover come loose and slice a hole in the ATF line (want to replace a transmission with a timing belt?), and wear the timing belt (though worn severly, the belt did not break). two first hand instances where the covers induced damage to the vehicles. would i call someone stupid for leaving the covers on...no, do it however you want it. covers can hurt the vehicle...AH! running without covers can hurt it....AH!! what to do? drive one month with, one month without? drive with one side on, one side without..which side??...what to do, what to do....

if one bad experience dictates your decision making process, then you wouldn't be able to drive any vehicle ever made.

[Gloyale]

i've seen a D/S cover come loose and slice a hole in the ATF line (want to replace a transmission with a timing belt?), and wear the timing belt (though worn severly, the belt did not break). two first hand instances where the covers induced damage to the vehicles.

Covers that are in poor condition, been installed improperly, or otherwise screwed up are not a good comparison. The covers, just like any other part of a car should be inspected for condition and proper fit at regular intervals. I'll bet something else had to have happened(like neglect) in that engine bay before the cover just "broke off" and tore up the trans lines. Properly installed, good condition covers WILL protect you from foreign objects breaking or slipping you're belts.

[GeneralDisorder]

Properly installed, good condition covers WILL protect you from foreign objects breaking or slipping you're belts.

That's not the issue. The issue is that IF and WHEN they do break - due to foreign object, age, or mileage - some of us prefer to have a spare set on hand plus a 12mm socket ($18 for both) and be able to replace them in 15 minutes - rather than spend several hours screwing with the covers, crank pulley removal, and probably towing the vehicle from wherever it broke down.

Screw the covers.

GD

[Prospeeder]

odd my covers when i took them off, came off perfect, no spining thingies or anything, or hangups, i shoulda kept them for one of you guys, lol, but every person who loooked at my car to buy said "wheres the timing belt covers???? do you have them??? thats bad!!" im like uhh its been like this for awhile, so i wouldnt worry about it.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Simple - use zip ties instead of the bolts.

GD

Very Nice & Simple Idea!

[Gloyale]

Properly installed, good condition covers WILL protect you from foreign objects breaking or slipping you're belts.

That's not the issue. The issue is that IF and WHEN they do break - due to foreign object, age, or mileage - some of us prefer to have a spare set on hand plus a 12mm socket ($18 for both) and be able to replace them in 15 minutes - rather than spend several hours screwing with the covers, crank pulley removal, and probably towing the vehicle from wherever it broke down.

Screw the covers.

GD

Actually, for me it is the issue. Since I change my belts regularly, I don't have to worry about them breaking. Except if I was to have no covers, then I would have to worry about debris/mud/snow etc.

On the off chance that I do have a belt break, I am prepared. It's never happened to MY car. But on a friends car, I have done a belt change in less than an hour, on the side of the interstate. With covers.(no AC so that helped) Honestly, how much harder is it to also carry a Breaker barw/22mm and a 10mm socket with you're extra belts? I always carry an idler and spare tensioners as well.

But if you want to screw you're covers.....be my guest

[GeneralDisorder]

Make you life needlessly difficult if you like - but don't comment on running without covers when you admittedly have never done so. I've put over 50,000 on coverless EA82's and broken 1 set of belts due to my own mistake of dropping a rag into them. With proper skid plates debris isn't an issue - without them you are just as likely to puncture your oil pan as catch something in the belts.

That said, I don't consider the EA82 worthy of anything but street anyway. I wouldn't take one off road simply because of the added mechanical complexity.

You aren't going to convice anyone anyway, so stop trying. This has been hashed out many, many times before and the consensus is that they are generally more of a nuisance than the small amount of insurance you get out of them.

GD

[grossgary]

Except if I was to have no covers, then I would have to worry about debris/mud/snow etc.

you don't have to worry, that's your choice. you assume this state of worry is necessary based on a biased oppinion, what you want and choose to do and zero personal experience. that the plastic is 20 years old, brittle and can fall apart isn't debatable. that's great that yours are in great shape and don't have any issues, i've worked on dozens of soobs and that is not the norm. i'm not about to replace them on every EA/ER vehicle i work on or drive. if they are in good shape and it's not my car i put them back, but that's not often the case. but i don't really care about this though either, there's really no way to statitistically quantify every possible failure mode and say one is more probable than another. stating the risks is one thing but assuming snow is going to blow your timing belt is a far stretch and seems misleading to people wanting good information.

[Sonicfrog]

Last summer the drivers side tensioner pulley froze up on Murphy, the $500 87 T-Wag, and I had to make an emergency roadside repair. I was lucky three times over; the belt was a singed but didn't break, I was traveling back home from a spa repair job thus had my tools, and I just happened to be close to a pick-and-pull so I had access to plenty of donor cars. The job was a heck of allot easier since I had ditched the belt covers during the previous head gasket issue. Yesterday I finally got around to replacing the cooked belt, and again, the job was much easier w/o covers.

[Gloyale]

[quote name='GeneralDisorder']I've put over 50,000 on coverless EA82's and broken 1 set of belts due to my own mistake of dropping a rag into them.[/Quote] 1 more broken belt than I've ever had[quote name='GeneralDisorder']With proper skid plates debris isn't an issue - without them you are just as likely to puncture your oil pan as catch something in the belts. [/quote] I have always made a point of running skid plates on all of my EA82s. Snow can still get up in there. And it takes a big rock or log to puncture the pan. it only takes a plastic bag or a rag or a small stick to slip/break the belts.

[quote name='GeneralDisorder']That said, I don't consider the EA82 worthy of anything but street anyway. I wouldn't take one off road simply because of the added mechanical complexity.[/quote] I would, I have, and besides that isn't the point. The title of the thread is not "off-roading with t-belt covers" People are asking about everyday use, and a few have had debris issues "on road"[/Quote]

[quote name='GeneralDisorder']You aren't going to convice anyone anyway, so stop trying. This has been hashed out many, many times before and the consensus is that they are generally more of a nuisance than the small amount of insurance you get out of them.
GD[/QUOTE]

The only general consensus is to each there own. Why do you have such a dire need to tell everybody what they are supposed to think? Several people in this thread agree with me(including FUJI, who put them there), several agree with you. Why don't you stop trying to tell me what to think? You are not the only one in the world who has real experience with these machines.

[Gloyale]

you don't have to worry, that's your choice. you assume this state of worry is necessary based on a biased oppinion, what you want and choose to do and zero personal experience.

I take offense. I have owned a total of 7 EA82's. I have serviced dozens of others. I have 10 years of experience with them.

stating the risks is one thing but assuming snow is going to blow your timing belt is a far stretch and seems misleading to people wanting good information.

Ask MileMaker013 about that. It happened to him. Left him dead on the road in a snow storm. And I have had snow up in my engine bay far enough it would have happen to me except that I have my covers on.

[GeneralDisorder]

Do as you wish, but your experience counts for nothing as you have never run without covers. Let those who have done so speak from their experiences - your loud denouncing of a practice you haven't tried adds nothing to the debate. We all know the reasons for the covers and we choose to take the chance because our EXPERIENCE (which you lack, but seem insistent to substitute normal maintenance, and the ownership of a whole 7 gen 3's.... I've owned and maintained more BTW [I've lost count] - not that it's in the least bit germain to this discussion) tells us the benefits outweigh the costs. You seem stuck on the very minor possilbility of a failure when the true issue is that we are trading that minor possibility (with full knowledge of it's consequences) for easier maintenance and repair. We are not all rich people that can afford to replace every bearing, seal, and belt exactly when it's required - if I could I wouldn't be driving a 20 year old POS. As such your prostelitizing is both wrong-headed and insulting.

It's not the big deal you seem to think it is.

The only general consensus is to each there own.

That isn't the definition of consensus. Try a dictionary.

GD

[grossgary]

is it agreeable that the statistics are so small that this isn't really a big deal? it's going to be hard to convince those of us that have done this for years and on many soobs with never an issue..except issues where the covers caused a problem. rather than take this discussion to mean everyone should do it, make your decision based on your situation. if you have snow packed up in your engine bay...then the real issue is something more than timing belt covers. underneath protection or a different vehicle are likely needed if you're getting all of that kind of snow packed up in there.

one anecodotal incident does not make a trend. two issues without covers, and i've seen two with covers myself. and i know it's nice to have perfect covers, but that's not realistic....go bend one when it's 10 degrees outside, they break very easily.

having snow packed up in your engine isn't a typical driving situation and likely doesn't apply to many people. i drive an XT6, maybe my skid plates or ground clearance help but i've never had that problem in all of the XT6's i've driven.

[Gloyale]

Do as you wish, but your experience counts for nothing as you have never run without covers.

This makes no sense, All of our experience's are relavant. I have driven my 7 Subaru's cross country more than 20 times. Many of those trips through ND in the winter. I am not willing to chance a preventable failure. And I have seen situations that would have affected my T-belts had I not had covers. That is DIRECTLY relavant to the discussion.

We are not all rich people that can afford to replace every bearing, seal, and belt exactly when it's required - if I could I wouldn't be driving a 20 year old POS.

I am not rich either. But c'mon? you're not seriously arguing for neglecting regular maintainence? Timing belts are not expensive either. Especially for those like us who do our own work.

As such your prostelitizing is both wrong-headed and insulting.
It's not the big deal you seem to think it is.

If you are insulted by a post in a forum, man you got issues. You seem to be the only one who is still so frickin adament about this. All I have said is that I choose to run them. And that I don't see them as a huge problem to remove and replace, I have stated my reasons, which you repeatedly try to dispute. If you are such a bad rump roast subaru expert with so much experience, why are you so affraid of someone having a different opinion? All I'm doing is stating my opinion. That's all. I am not telling anybody what to do. Just putting in my YAY, and stating why.

[daeron]

hey, youre both just over hashing a pointless debate, you are BOTH being over sensitive and over defensive of your own points.

In short, you are both simply living up to GD's tagline, so let it drop... Semantic arguments like this get nowhere, you have both made your points thoroughly enough.

GS says "you haven't driven a single mile without covers, so your experience is not valid" which is strictly speaking applicable and true; you haven't got any real data to provide along the lines of "it took me 20K on a coverless soob to lose my first set of belts that could have been prevented."

No one is trying to say that running with the covers on is more risky than running without; but Gloyale, you seem to be defending yourself from that point.

At the same time, no one is trying to say that taking the covers off means shredding your belts; GD seems to be defending against THAT point.

You both obviously feel very very passionate about your timing belt covers, and we all know who likes what. What further purpose is served by continuing the argument? BOTH of you are very knowledgeable guys who contribute ALOT of help, information, and experience to the rest of us; there is no need to get into a pissing contest over which route is "wisest."

Different strokes for different folks. Whatever floats your boats. If the shoe fits, wear it.





and the timing belt covers suck, DONT USE THEM!!! :-p (sorry had to throw that in there to make the tone more humorous)

[Prospeeder]

I thank GOD i didnt put my timing belt covers on. I had a defective water pump that the impeller shaft went out on and it cause the gasket itself to blow out for some odd reason, i resealed it many times and it would blow out after a few days, finally i took it back and got a nother, if i hadnt left the covers off i would have been majorly mad! AND! i took that car through snow higher than its front bumper without the covers and it did fine, went on gravel roads at 50 on it just fine. That and it made retensioning the belts eays as hell to. It also makes it much easier to find out if a belts skipped

[Gloyale]

BTW this is a quote from my original post in this thread:

"But obviosly the uncovered belts work fine for the most part. Preferencce thing"

that is all I have to say.