Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 you need an analog meter and spin the crank and get a pulse. Unless you have an oscilliscope that is the way you test them, it is accepted on that bassis as it has an ac output. You cant use an digital meter as the sampling rate is too high and the output is to low the meter will never see it. nipper and this is how I measured it last time, I was getting signal just fine. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 and this is how I measured it last time, I was getting signal just fine. Matt some digital see it some dont. Anyway either way it means that is ok. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 some digital see it some dont. Anyway either way it means that is ok. nipper I couldn't get any signal with my meter set at DC and then switched to AC and I was getting nice fluctuations. no digital probe involved in this measurement. will check few more things tomorrow morning and let you guys know whether I got something or not. now time for bed. night Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Using a meter to test the sensor will not show up broken tabs. You will still see an output from the good ones. A scope with the proper triggering is the the only sure way I can think you could tell if the output was good or not. You should visually inspect the tabs on the gear to see if they are ok or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebbles Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I have seen a simular problem. but it was fixed by replacing a buggered relay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 I have seen a simular problem. but it was fixed by replacing a buggered relay. where is it located? I'll check anything and everything now. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Here is a link to a picture of the crank position sensor. Look at the tabs on the outside of the gear. It is these tabs that get broken off and cause this kind of trouble. Using a meter on the sensor itself will not tell you if all the tabs are really ok. You need to check them physically. http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8080/subaru/images/timingbelt/DCP_2703.JPG Thanks to Legacy777 for the picture. As far as checking a relay that was mentioned in the last post, I have no clue what relay could cause this kind of trouble. To me, the trouble has to be either with one of the sensor gears or in the ECU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 Here is a link to a picture of the crank position sensor. Look at the tabs on the outside of the gear. It is these tabs that get broken off and cause this kind of trouble. Using a meter on the sensor itself will not tell you if all the tabs are really ok. You need to check them physically. http://www.main.experiencetherave.com:8080/subaru/images/timingbelt/DCP_2703.JPG Thanks to Legacy777 for the picture. As far as checking a relay that was mentioned in the last post, I have no clue what relay could cause this kind of trouble. To me, the trouble has to be either with one of the sensor gears or in the ECU. when I was replacing timing belt I looked at those and they looked fine. that was about couple of weeks ago... I guess I'll look again then... going to junk yard today to find a used ECU, but first will test the signal coming coil, I just found digital probe so should be able to see if it blinks or not. thanks all for help Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I left out one thing in my last post. The problem may be with the ignitor module also. Check the wiring between the ignitor and the coil for a problem. EDIT: Check to make sure that the following wires have good continunity since they control the ignitor. On the ECU, pin 13 (yel/vio) should tie to pin 1 of the ignitor and ECU pin 14 (yel/blu) should tie to pin 2. You could also check the AC voltages on ignitor pins 1 and 2 with reference to ground while the engine is turning over. If you read the same voltages then it would appear the ignitor is the problem since the input to it would seem ok. With the car off, remove the connector to the ignitor and check the resistances between ignitor pins 1 and 3(ground) and then 2 and 3. If the readings are close to the same the ignitor may be ok but I can't say that for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 I left out one thing in my last post. The problem may be with the ignitor module also. Check the wiring between the ignitor and the coil for a problem. EDIT: Check to make sure that the following wires have good continunity since they control the ignitor. On the ECU, pin 13 (yel/vio) should tie to pin 1 of the ignitor and ECU pin 14 (yel/blu) should tie to pin 2. You could also check the AC voltages on ignitor pins 1 and 2 with reference to ground while the engine is turning over. If you read the same voltages then it would appear the ignitor is the problem since the input to it would seem ok. With the car off, remove the connector to the ignitor and check the resistances between ignitor pins 1 and 3(ground) and then 2 and 3. If the readings are close to the same the ignitor may be ok but I can't say that for sure. thanks, going to garage now, I'll try new ECU that I just picked up from junkyard. so far I only tested wires between coil harness and that 16 pin connector and it checked out just fine. I guess I'll try cranking it with new ECU first, if nothing then I test connection between ECU and ignitor, those should read very little resistance. also, someone told me to cut wires going from ignitor to coil and connect them to ground and 12v supply to see if it works like that, if so it would point out to bad ignitor.... will see in couple of hours. I really want to get it over with today, next few days I need to fix AC problem on my wife's car, and it's getting worm in Chicago so need to hurry up with Subaru now. thanks guys Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 one more thing, could it be bad engine ground? where is the engine ground located in this car? looked for one earlier, found something but wasn't sure if that's it. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 Ok, so wires between ECU and ignitor are fine. Now, someone mentioned before to check resistance between pins 1-3 and 2-3 on the ignitor. So I did and here’s what I got, resistance between those pins on my old ignitor are totally different from resistance on the ignitor I got from junkyard. I tried both of those ignitors and still could not start this car. Hmmm, make me think now. Ok, another question: the ECU I got from junkyard has different number/numbers on it. I pulled it out of same Subaru, but the one from junkyard is couple of months younger than the one in my garage. My question is, can I hook the other ECU to my car without causing any further damages to the electrical circuitry? Going back to ignitor, I think I got different reading from the other two pins. I believe those are pins 5 and 6. I remember one was in kohms and other was in Mohms. Does this mean anything??? Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 one more thing, could it be bad engine ground? where is the engine ground located in this car? looked for one earlier, found something but wasn't sure if that's it. Matt The grounding is not the problem since the ignition ground is common to both sides of the coil and half of it is working. The grounding of the engine is relative to the negative side of the battery, which is tied to the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Ok, so wires between ECU and ignitor are fine. Now, someone mentioned before to check resistance between pins 1-3 and 2-3 on the ignitor. So I did and here’s what I got, resistance between those pins on my old ignitor are totally different from resistance on the ignitor I got from junkyard. I tried both of those ignitors and still could not start this car. Hmmm, make me think now. Ok, another question: the ECU I got from junkyard has different number/numbers on it. I pulled it out of same Subaru, but the one from junkyard is couple of months younger than the one in my garage. My question is, can I hook the other ECU to my car without causing any further damages to the electrical circuitry? Going back to ignitor, I think I got different reading from the other two pins. I believe those are pins 5 and 6. I remember one was in kohms and other was in Mohms. Does this mean anything??? Matt Please tell me what the readings are on those pins I told you about. Tell me what the replacement ignitor pins read also. It may help also to take voltage readings with the ignition on. Check pins 1 and 3 and then 2 and 3. If the voltages are significantly different then this may mean the ignitor input is bad. I don't think plugging in the other ECU will hurt anything as long as the plugs match up ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 Please tell me what the readings are on those pins I told you about. Tell me what the replacement ignitor pins read also. I don't think plugging in the other ECU will hurt anything as long as the plugs match up ok. wires between ECU and ignitor are fine, resistance between pin 1-3 and 2-3 of the ignitor are: 614 ohms and 621 ohms. I also checked wiring between pins 1 and 2 coming out of ignitor and pins 1 and 3 at the connector to the coil, those also seem fine. going to plug in the ECU from junkyard, will let you know how that went in few minutes. matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 So here are the results, after plugging in another ECU car still does not start. I also checked AC voltage at pins 1 and 3 at coil connector; those pins are connected to pins 2 and 1 at ignitor. I got about 35-45 mV at pin 1 and about 80+ mV at pin 3 while cranking the engine. Someone said that if outputs are different then ignitor should be fine. So what do I do now? Any more ideas before I have a heart attack… I swapped ECUs, checked connection from ECU to the igniter, checked igniter (or at least I think I did unless you know of a better method to do it), checked connection between igniter and coil, checked both crankshaft as well as camshaft position sensors and they do send signal in mV, I have no idea whether the signal from both of them is getting anywhere but they sure do send this signal somewhere, reversed pins at the coil to see if the other side gives spark, checked cables. What in gods name should I do now????????? HELP HELP HELP Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 Please tell me what the readings are on those pins I told you about. Tell me what the replacement ignitor pins read also. It may help also to take voltage readings with the ignition on. Check pins 1 and 3 and then 2 and 3. If the voltages are significantly different then this may mean the ignitor input is bad. I don't think plugging in the other ECU will hurt anything as long as the plugs match up ok. going back to check those pins with kye turned on in the ignition, let you know in a minute what I get. I can't even remember any more whether I checked it already or not... will see soon. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 wires between ECU and ignitor are fine, resistance between pin 1-3 and 2-3 of the ignitor are: 614 ohms and 621 ohms. I also checked wiring between pins 1 and 2 coming out of ignitor and pins 1 and 3 at the connector to the coil, those also seem fine. going to plug in the ECU from junkyard, will let you know how that went in few minutes. matt Ok. If the new ECU doesn't change anything and the new ignitor doesn't change the results then the crank and cam cog tabs need to be checked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 I get no voltage at pins 1 and 2 of the ignitor when kye in the ignition is switched on. I also tested pins 13 and 14 of the ECU which are leading to pins 2 and 1 of the ignitor while cranking the motor. I got 1+ volts coming out of pin 14 and around 0.1 volts coming out of pin 13 of the ECU. Are those suppose to be the same or different??? anyone in north Chicago suburbs would like to come over and let us use some parts from his or her car to check and see what we need:lol: I'm running out of ideas here... Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjez Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 Ok. If the new ECU doesn't change anything and the new ignitor doesn't change the results then the crank and cam cog tabs need to be checked. do I need to take that whole thing apart again, or is there an easier way to check those tabs? what if I took it out and used flash light to see if those tabs are still there? Anyone want to purchase this Subaru? c'mon, it would ba a great summer project.... hahaha Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I get no voltage at pins 1 and 2 of the ignitor when kye in the ignition is switched on. I also tested pins 13 and 14 of the ECU which are leading to pins 2 and 1 of the ignitor while cranking the motor. I got 1+ volts coming out of pin 14 and around 0.1 volts coming out of pin 13 of the ECU. Are those suppose to be the same or different??? anyone in north Chicago suburbs would like to come over and let us use some parts from his or her car to check and see what we need:lol: I'm running out of ideas here... Matt Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. Pins 13 and 14 of the ECU control the ignitor for each side of the engine. The voltage readings should be the same for each side relative to ground. It appears there is a significant difference here. One side is firing and one side isn't. Since you have already changed out the ECU and it made no change then it looks like the input to the ECU is the problem. Again, you need to physically look at the cam and crank cogs to see if they are damaged. My bet is some of the tabs are broken. Refer to the earlier link to the picture, for reference to the crank cog at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Hi Nipper, I see you are online. Any comments on this trouble. You always have some good input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Hi Nipper, I see you are online. Any comments on this trouble. You always have some good input. sure drag me back in kicking and screaming, i thought you were my freind . i've been avoiding this of late since it seems to be all over the place. I may repeat myself and others, but after 5 pages i need a recap. The crank and cam sensor have been checked with an analog a/c meter to check for a heartbeat when the engine is cranked through one complete cycle. there should be 6 heartbeats for the crank and 7 for the cam shaft. The coil packs have been checked for resistance and opens (exact specs are in the haynes manual). The ignitor output has been checked with an led testlight. Is there power to the fuel injectors? Are the fuel injectors opening and closing (bad ecu) Are there any dirty connectors or wires is the TPS within spec Is the ecu engine temp sensor operating. Is the intake clear? beyond that i cant help without looking at the car. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Have we discussed why the work was done on this engine to begin with? Was it running well before the work? Also, how long and under what conditions ahs it been stored? Do the plugs get wet when you crank it? That would tell you the injectors are opening at least. Have you tried the 'clear flood' pressing of the accel pedal? Does a strip of paper try to 'suck in' when held at the tailpipe during cranking? Carl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I have a `95 Subaru Legacy that does not want to start. About two weeks ago I replaced timing belt and last weekend I replaced spark plugs, car was working fine after that. But in the last couple of days I had a really hard time starting it especially when it was cooler in the morning. And today it didn’t start at all. I checked secondary resistance of the coil and it looks fine. Primary resistance is higher by about .04 ohm so I don’t think it would make a huge difference. Fuel pump works fine. Unplugged fuel line and turn the key in the ignition and it started spraying fuel. Interestingly enough after I removed spark plugs to see if there is spark I found that cylinder 1 and 2 get spark and cylinders 3 and 4 don’t get any when I crank the engine until the moment when I turn the key in the ignition back to position 2. Does any one know what could this be. Could it be ignition coil, ignitor or maybe cables…. Please help Matt Luckytexan it was running right after the change, then slowly got worse. This is really hard to do over the net when you need to do a checklist to see what is and isnt going on. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.