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89 turbo automatic transmittion in a Loyale quit---


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26 replies to this topic

#1 tlake

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 01:10 AM

My daughter was driving her car up a hill and stepped on the gas to pass another car. She said it made a clunk and the car started to slow down. No matter what gear you put the shifter in the car does not move.
Fluid levels look fine. Any idea on what may be wrong with the tranny????

#2 NorthWet

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 01:23 AM

Important information needed: Is this a 3-speed or 4-speed automatic?

#3 tlake

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 10:13 AM

It is a 4 speed automatic.

#4 NorthWet

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 11:28 AM

2 things to check: First, while sitting still (duh!), and trying to move, look in the engine compartment at the axle shafts and see if one is spinning, either at the tranny stub or along the shaft length. (This shouldl tell if either an axles's DOJ broke or the wheel's hub stripped.)

Second, is the "POWER" light on the dash blinking (16, or is it 17?, times) when you start the car? If so, this is indicating that the "4EAT"s Transmission Control Unit (TCU) is reporting an error.

If the latter is the case, there is a procedure to get the TCU to cough-up its error codes. It sounds more difficult than it really is. The following is courtesy of Grossgary:

okay here's how it really works...this is going to sound so convoluted and dumb, but i promise this is the the way to read the codes:

START THE ENGINE and allow it to warm up for about 2-5 minutes...
Turn ignition all the way off.
1) Turn ignition ON (don't start the car)
2) Check if POWER light comes on (if not, light or circuit is faulty)
3) Turn ignition OFF
4) Shift into "D" range and turn 1-HOLD switch ON
5) Turn ignition ON
6) Shift into "3" range and turn 1-HOLD switch OFF
7) Shift into "2" range and turn 1-HOLD switch ON
8) Depress accelerator halfway (I just tapped mine to the floor once)

If the light stays lit continuously, the range switch, 1-HOLD switch, idle switch, or the circuits of any of the above may be faulty. Otherwise you should get 11 blinks (total of 12 if you count the 2 second blink before the items are checked) (pay attention!!!) A "no problem" condition should be represented by 0.1 seconds of light, then 0.9 seconds of off time for each of the 11 things on the list. A problem consists of 0.6 seconds of light and 0.4 seconds of off time. These times are very close, but you'll be able to tell a difference I promise. Quick light is no problem, long light is problem. You'll have to count to see which one indicates the problem!

List of items checked...
1) Speed sensor #1
2) Speed sensor #2
3) Throttle sensor
4) Shift solenoid #1
5) Shift solenoid #2
6) Shift solenoid #3
7) Duty solenoid B
8) Duty solenoid C (4WD only)
9) ATF Temperature sensor
10) Ignition pulse
11) Duty solenoid A

good luck,


#5 tlake

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 12:09 PM

Thanks for the directions.

Here is what I found.

1. When in gear neither axle shafts turn.
2. Power light is not blinking when I first start the car.
3. Ran the diags. Got 11 fast blinks.

Thanks,

#6 tlake

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 12:09 PM

Thanks for the directions.

Here is what I found.

1. When in gear neither axle shafts turn.
2. Power light is not blinking when I first start the car.
3. Ran the diags. Got 11 fast blinks.

Thanks,

#7 NorthWet

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 12:44 PM

Well... kind of an unusual problem. So, let's think of some other possible problems.

Does the PARK position keep the car from rolling forwards and back? (Maybe the shift cable/mechanism came adrift.) *edit* - And if you take it out of PARK will it roll?

Do you have sufficient ATF in the tranny? (Separate ATF and diff dipsticks; ATF is near the starting motor, buried amongst starter cables and ATF cooler lines.)

If you remove the rubber plug from the timing-mark access hole (top of the engine's bellhousing) and look at the torque converter and engine's flex-plate (TQ attachment point, like a sheet-metal flywheel), does the torque converter spin along with the flex-plate? (might have lost/sheared mounting bolts.)

#8 tlake

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 02:37 PM

Forgot to add this is an AWD.

1. The car does not roll when in park.
2. It does roll when out of park.
3. ATF level is at the add mark. Going now to get more ATF.
4. The flexplate and torque plate spin together.

If I have to pull the transmittion does the transaxle have to be removed with the transmittion as one unit?

#9 NorthWet

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 06:31 PM

... If I have to pull the transmittion does the transaxle have to be removed with the transmittion as one unit?

Not quite sure what you mean by this. The transmission and front differential are a unit (a transaxle), so in this regard yes, they need to be removed as a unit.

Given the car and the tranny type, AWD was assumed. I am just about out of suggestions. This tranny is fairly rare in the Old-Gen world, being used only in '88+ Turbos, XT6s and maybe some XTs (not sure). You might want to get the attention of either some XT6-familiar members (grossgary immediately comes to mind) and/or maybe some New Gen folks (Legacy777 might be a good starting point) as the 4EAT was used more in New Gen (though not directly interchangeable).

Given the relative rarity of this tranny, you may be in for some difficulty if it needs replacing. I have a spare, but its previous owner said it was having problems (minor, relative to yours :) ), and I believe that XSNRG still has at least one.

#10 4x4_Welder

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 07:25 PM

If the fluid is low with the engine off, then it's severly low, probably not even on the stick with the engine running. IIRC, the add mark on the dipstick is only 1pt low, don't overfill it or you will get nasty milkshake out of the vent. If adding fluid doesn't fix the problem, there are a couple other minor tests.
Disconnect the lines from the cooler, and place in a 1gallon container. While watching the lines, have somebody start the car in Neutral. If no fluid comes out, the pump isn't pumping and the problem could be the drive on the back of the torque converter, or the pump itself came apart. Also, check the dipstick for shiny bits. If the oil is sparkly, it's the pump.
If you only get a trickle out of the lines with the engine running, pull the pan and look for debris in the pickup. If there is plastic or metal shavings in the pickup, the pump or governor has come apart, and major work is needed.
Also, hit the diff lock switch and see if the car will move. It could be a broken shaft or stripped ring and pinion at either end.
When you put the car in gear, does it sounds like it goes in gear, or sound like there is any load on the engine? Is there any change in the way the engine sounds from before this happened? Any noises from the tranny at all?

#11 NorthWet

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 09:19 PM

Good suggestions in general.

But, FYI...

...If there is plastic or metal shavings in the pickup, the pump or governor has come apart, and major work is needed.
Also, hit the diff lock switch and see if the car will move...

There is no governor on this tranny, and no diff-lock. The first is a "so what", but the second means that this test can't be done; The TCU will decide when to activate the transfer clutchpack.

#12 4x4_Welder

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 09:28 PM

Yeah, I'm much more at home with Ford automatics. I can rebuild a c6 in less than three hours.
I thought all the AWD cars had a diff lock switch?

#13 NorthWet

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 09:47 PM

Gee, how good are you with 727s?

The beauty of the 4EAT is that the TCU is in complete control. The beast is also that the TCU is in complete control... or not. :rolleyes: I am surprised that the TCU is not reporting any errors. That kind of implies that the tranny is not getting supplied any input power via TC, or that its output is going nowheres. Since one of the front axles isn't spinning, I think that output issues can be ruled out (unless a stub axle broke or pulled loose from the diff). It does kind of sound like the pump is not effectively pumping, either due to low level, pickup issues (pickup is supposed to be VERY close to pan, so that a dent could cause issues) or maybe an internal leak.

#14 4x4_Welder

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 12:29 AM

I've rebuilt Chrysler FWD autos before- that actually was my test transmission in school. My roommate and I finished ours in about 45 minutes, and it was the only one that went onto the dyno without any trouble.
I've done GM Th series autos, (that's where the plastic governor gear comes into play, very common failure point for them), Ford c4 and c6 autos, and many manual transmissions.
At any rate, keep us posted on this thing, I'd like to know what the failure point is.

#15 grossgary

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 04:34 AM

find out if any fluid is moving, pull the fluid lines and see if any fluid is moving like 4x4 said.
after this i'd drain the fluid and see if there are any chunks or pieces in the fluid/pan. a dented pan will restrict ATF flow.

i'd start sourcing another transmission while you diagnose.

there were no problems or work done to this transmission recently?

#16 mdjdc

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 05:47 AM

This sounds like a problem I had with my tranny on my 88 gl10. Is the tranny making a whining noise since this power failure came up? If so, you more than like lost your torque converter. I've had this happen and so has my best friend. The torque converter just isn't strong enough to take the punnishment is is given everyday for the mile the car was designed to live. I'd be willing to bet you lost the TQ and is only costs about 135.00 to get a new one.

Good luck

Mike

#17 NorthWet

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 11:47 AM

Thanks, GG.

... I'd be willing to bet you lost the TQ and is only costs about 135.00 to get a new one.

Good luck

Mike

This was a torque converter for a 4-speed automatic and not the 3-speed? Seems kind of inexpensive.

#18 mdjdc

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 12:42 PM

Yes it was the TQ for the 4spd auto. No matter how you look at it, it is much cheaper than replacing the entire tranny. They are very hard to find, even used and they tend to be expensive.

Good Luck

#19 tlake

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 12:52 AM

I talked with our local transmittion shop today. He agrees that it is the torque converter. He has replaced 3 in the last two month. He says I can get a heavy duty converter. I will pull the transaxle Tuesday and let you know.

#20 mdjdc

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 05:45 AM

I'm glad that that is all the problem is. Personally, I like the 4spd auto. It is quick and this car actually gets better mileage with the auto rather than the 5spd. I converted a car and it went from 30 mpg to 24 mpg.

Good luck

Mike

#21 nipper

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 07:03 AM

i was going to say the reason no code was thrown was because as far as the tranny is concerned everything is ok.
SOUnds like the overrunning clutch in the TC went bad. Also while your there check the flex plate and rear main seal.

nipper

#22 tlake

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 07:10 PM

Its the torque converter. Splines are stripped.

#23 mdjdc

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 05:27 AM

I knew it, I knew it, I knew it.....

I've seen two others do the same thing and the shops wanted to replace the entire tranny. It's such an easy fix.

#24 NorthWet

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 05:44 AM

Were you able to find a new torque converter at a reasonable cost?

#25 tlake

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 06:20 PM

torque converter ran $350




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