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Need help, GL10 won't start after cam swap!


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22 replies to this topic

#1 GoldDiggerRoo

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:31 PM

Well, another board member and I (desperate) decided to go ahead and do the cam swap on his '87 GL10 wagon over the weekend. Well we now have everything back together and the wagon will not start. It turns over great and even seems to hit on a few cylnders and wants to start but just won't go all the way. Now we've lined up the cams sprockets with the marks on the belt covers like you're supposed to and lined up the timing tab to the three little marks on the flywheel but the we just can't seem to get it. We're getting plenty of fuel and spark, everything appears to be good. Is there something we could be overlooking, some tip/hint or something specific to the EA82 Turbo? BTW the cams are Delta 270's I think. Help! Please!

#2 Syonyk

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:50 PM

So you lined up the middle of the three scribe marks with the arrow, set one cam to "vertical" lined up with the mark, rotated the crank 360 degrees, and set the other cam to "vertical", right?

My next guess would be the distributor - if it's off by a tooth, or off by 180 degrees, the car may not start. Also, swapped plug wires will cause this - it'll sound like it's ready to start, but won't actually start. Find TDC on a cylinder's compression stroke (with a plug removed, you can feel the pressure with your thumb over the plug hole, or listen for the hiss with the plug mostly removed), and make sure the distributor rotor is pointed the right direction to fire that cylinder.

Finally, if you've been cranking it for a while trying to start, the battery may be low enough that the ECU isn't able to come online, and/or it may be flooded. Disconnect the fuel pump, crank at wide open throttle for a while (preferably while connected to another vehicle), and then reconnect the fuel pump & give it a shot. I don't know if EA82s will flood that bad, but that's what we do with rotary engines over in the RX-7 community, and I did something similar when fighting with getting my 'GL started after it sat for 6 months (bad disty). I was cranking it a lot before I realized the distributor plug wasn't fully seated (is yours?), and I drained the battery most of the way. I jumped it to my Loyale, and cranked at wide open throttle for a bit until it fired.

You could also try a shot or two of starter fluid. That'll tell you in a hurry if it's fuel or spark that's the problem.

-=Russ=-

#3 hooziewhatsit

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Posted 29 August 2006 - 11:52 PM

how did you make sure you got the distributor back in the right place?

To check it:
rotate the engine by hand until the passenger side cam dot is pointing due North-West (10:30 o'clock)

There, the rotor should be pointing right at the #1 plug.

Using that method should get you at least close enough that it will run, and you can check it with a light.

Also, the cams are 180* from each other, right?

#4 GoldDiggerRoo

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 12:00 AM

Also, the cams are 180* from each other, right?


The disty is back where it's supposed to be, the cams aren't 180 from each other, he was told by someone they didn't have to be........ so, which do you set first and how do you know you've rotated 180? What marks would you be looking for on the flywheel or do you just visually rotate a cam 180?

#5 Numbchux

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 12:12 AM

The disty is back where it's supposed to be, the cams aren't 180 from each other, he was told by someone they didn't have to be........ so, which do you set first and how do you know you've rotated 180? What marks would you be looking for on the flywheel or do you just visually rotate a cam 180?


you set the driver side one straight up, align the flywheel marks, install and tighten that side belt. rotate the crank one full turn back to the flywheel marks (driver side cam mark should be pointing straight down), then put the passenger side cam mark straight up, and install it's belt.

that should get you on the road

#6 GoldDiggerRoo

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 12:15 AM

you set the driver side one straight up, align the flywheel marks, install and tighten that side belt. rotate the crank one full turn back to the flywheel marks (driver side cam mark should be pointing straight down), then put the passenger side cam mark straight up, and install it's belt.

that should get you on the road


Thanks man, we'll try that.... and I'm sure we'll be talking about it all day at work tomorrow too. The anticipation to try it will make for a long 9 hour day.

#7 daeron

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 01:03 AM

LOL that sucks..

but alot of us have been there. its the one step in the timing belt procedure that isnt easy.. once you get beyond the cursed belt covers and their filthy, cursed knurled nuts that are retained in the filty, cursed rear cover with that filthy, cursed, constantly-breaking plastic...

ive got my covers left off now (just to revive an old debate :rolleyes:) but i think im going to put them back on with the ziptie method... and if youve never heard of this, you might want to consider as they CAN be such a pain if you ever do have to take them off again.....

#8 hooziewhatsit

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 01:12 AM

yea, follow the procedure Numbchux spelled out first, then make sure the disty is correct by checking it compared to the passenger side cam dot.

#9 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 02:01 AM

After you time the belts you need to stab that disty in. Put the engine at #1 TDC (0 on the timing marks of the flywheel), and slide the disty in with it pointing at the #1 spark boot.

As for timeing the belts - my method is drivers side up, passenger side down, and put both belts on. Done. No rotating or anything. You can do it that way, but I prefer to do it without rotating - it's quicker.

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#10 daeron

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 02:38 AM

After you time the belts you need to stab that disty in. Put the engine at #1 TDC (0 on the timing marks of the flywheel), and slide the disty in with it pointing at the #1 spark boot.

As for timeing the belts - my method is drivers side up, passenger side down, and put both belts on. Done. No rotating or anything. You can do it that way, but I prefer to do it without rotating - it's quicker.

GD


Thats what i thought!!! but im no pro, far from it (im a good amateur but i like to make the odd REAL dumb mistake, but its getting better) but when i was learning how to do it, once i figured out what i was supposed to do.. i didnt understand why i couldnt just set the cams up 180 apart first..... but i assumed that if i could just do that, then they would have told me that...

#11 Steveman09

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 02:47 AM

Well, another board member and I (desperate) decided to go ahead and do the cam swap on his '87 GL10 wagon over the weekend. Well we now have everything back together and the wagon will not start. It turns over great and even seems to hit on a few cylnders and wants to start but just won't go all the way. Now we've lined up the cams sprockets with the marks on the belt covers like you're supposed to and lined up the timing tab to the three little marks on the flywheel but the we just can't seem to get it. We're getting plenty of fuel and spark, everything appears to be good. Is there something we could be overlooking, some tip/hint or something specific to the EA82 Turbo? BTW the cams are Delta 270's I think. Help! Please!


If you got the 272 Delta Cams let me know how the lifters sound when you get it fired up, did they give you instructions on shims?

#12 robm

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 10:31 AM

The recommended way is one cam at a time, and rotate between, because it is hard enough to get the second timing belt on without shifting it a tooth. Even WITH the marks, it is easy to get it out one tooth, and wonder why it runs like a dog.

Now, I pull it through a couple of times to make sure they are on right. I am not trying to break any records doing my timing belts, just get them on properly

Subaru could have put a different mark on passenger side cam pulley, but then there would be 2 different pulleys, that had to go in just the right place, so this is probably easier.

#13 Numbchux

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 12:51 PM

yep, GD is right....once you get used to it, it's much easier to do them both at once. but I know that if I had tried it that way the first time I did my own timing belts, I wouldn't have got it on the first try (but I did!).

I'd recommend doing it the 'right' way a couple times before doing it all at once. it's easier to spend a little extra time doing it the first time, than doing a sloppy job the first time, and having to do it again....'measure twice, cut once' as they say

#14 DasWaff

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 02:26 PM

I think the logic behind the 360 rotation method is there is no little notch to align by at the bottom of the cover. For me its now a ritual to do the 360 turn, maybe it appeases the ignition gods...

#15 NorthWet

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 03:13 PM

The difference between doing it "by the book" with the crank rotation and doing it 1-up/1-down is the difference between using factory timing marks and judgement.

If you do it by the book then anyone can do it right. It takes experience and good judgement to do it "by eye"; almost like ignition timing "by ear", but with much greater chance of success and much less chance of piston damage! :grin:

#16 daeron

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 05:40 AM

I think the logic behind the 360 rotation method is there is no little notch to align by at the bottom of the cover. For me its now a ritual to do the 360 turn, maybe it appeases the ignition gods...


I like that thinking. if i recall, now that i think about it, i seem to remember a spot that looked like it was almost 180 degrees from straight up.. maybe the seam between head and valve cover.. but is it possible that one might have a tendency to use that for a mark, and miss by a tooth that way?

I now see why one would NOT do it like that. Next time i have my belts off, i'll probly decide then, but its good to hear that it is doable, and how it is likely to be screwed up.

good thread.

#17 GoldDiggerRoo

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Posted 31 August 2006 - 03:33 PM

Well, thanks for all the help guys, we finally got it running last night about midnight. We got everything lined up and it didn't start. Checked everything again and all was well.... then on a hunch I jabbed the disty in 180 from where it was at and if fired right away, not sure what that was about. Anyhow, the car is makeing an enourmous amount of noise on the drivers side head, sounds like a collapsed lifter would but much louder. We pulled the valve cover and the rockers looked ok. Put it back together and drove it... ran well for about a half mile then crapped out. He said it sounded like it built boost and then popped something...... sounded like a blow off valve, after that the car would hardly run and was putting out a massive amount of black fuel smoke. I had to tow him back with my wagon...... so now it's a running car, but a very poorly running car.

#18 Steveman09

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 01:14 AM

Well, thanks for all the help guys, we finally got it running last night about midnight. We got everything lined up and it didn't start. Checked everything again and all was well.... then on a hunch I jabbed the disty in 180 from where it was at and if fired right away, not sure what that was about. Anyhow, the car is makeing an enourmous amount of noise on the drivers side head, sounds like a collapsed lifter would but much louder. We pulled the valve cover and the rockers looked ok. Put it back together and drove it... ran well for about a half mile then crapped out. He said it sounded like it built boost and then popped something...... sounded like a blow off valve, after that the car would hardly run and was putting out a massive amount of black fuel smoke. I had to tow him back with my wagon...... so now it's a running car, but a very poorly running car.



ahh notice how I was waiting to hear from you on lifter noise after it got running with the delta 272s? ;)

Here's the problems :

272 Cam Need List :

1. Lifter Shims to fix valve to lifter clearances since the center lobe is ground down too far on the 272's *TICK TICK TICK TICK* (Remove the Valve covers and put your finger on the rockers, if you can wiggle them and notice lots of play this is the problem, there should be little to NO movement when you try and wiggle them)

2. Fuel Managment - The 272 Cams will make the car run way too lean at idle and stall and die, then around 3-4k it will fall on its face

Here's what I found to work well with those cams :

80's Nissan 280ZX Turbo Fuel Injectors (junk yard)
APEXI S-AFC-II Fuel Controller
TD04-13g Turbo@7psi

Now here's the tricky part, now people know since the EA82-T MAF Sensor has a 0-7volt Range intead of the typical 0-5volt range. The SAFC controller only has a 0-5v Range, so normally with stock injectors the car would lean out at higher rpm's and now matter how much fuel you told the SAFC to give the motor it couldn't because it was allready at 5volts out of range. But if you use the 280ZX Turbo Injectors, they have enough extra fuel flow to counter act this to a point.

I've done testing watching the AFR's and with the SAFC I was able to push :

Stock Turbo 12psi to 6500rpm
TD04-13G Turbo 7-8psi to 6000rpm

With no lean issues with this setup.

The real solution is Megasquirt or E-Manage Ultimate since you can Delete the MAF and convert to MAP which works MUCH better and will allow you to achive higher boost and control timing.

Another cheaper method is to add a 5th Injector with a small controller to kick on with a Boost Switch.

Either way the 272 cams require supporting mods to work properly.

Good luck, if you need anymore help feel free to contact me since I have the 272 Cams in my car and have gone through all the hell getting them to work. In the end with everything finally dialed in they were worth it :)

#19 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 01:23 AM

I think the logic behind the 360 rotation method is there is no little notch to align by at the bottom of the cover. For me its now a ritual to do the 360 turn, maybe it appeases the ignition gods...


Actually it's because the cams are "unloaded" when the mark is up. It's the only position where none of the valves are compressed. Makes it easier to put the belts on as the cam turns each way a few degrees by hand.

GD

#20 NorthWet

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 05:03 AM

... ran well for about a half mile then crapped out. He said it sounded like it built boost and then popped something...... sounded like a blow off valve, after that the car would hardly run and was putting out a massive amount of black fuel smoke...

Check to see if the turbo plenum (the aluminum thing that says TURBO and connects the turbo outlet to the throttle body) has popped loose... typically at the throttle body. Make sure that the plenum is seated in the rubber connector hoses at both ends, and that all hose clamps are tight. What usually happens is someone forgets to tighten the clamps and the plenum pops up out of the rubber when on boost. Since you are losing metered air, not only are you lacking boost but also injecting too much fuel.

#21 mikeshoup

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 08:17 AM

Check to see if the turbo plenum (the aluminum thing that says TURBO and connects the turbo outlet to the throttle body) has popped loose... typically at the throttle body. Make sure that the plenum is seated in the rubber connector hoses at both ends, and that all hose clamps are tight. What usually happens is someone forgets to tighten the clamps and the plenum pops up out of the rubber when on boost. Since you are losing metered air, not only are you lacking boost but also injecting too much fuel.

+1
Happened to me after I put my turbo from replacing a water hose. This was quite fun, as it would backfire everyonce in a while at the person behind me who was riding my rump roast (I was still able to manage 5+speed limit with the engine running like that).

#22 GoldDiggerRoo

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 07:36 AM

Check to see if the turbo plenum (the aluminum thing that says TURBO and connects the turbo outlet to the throttle body) has popped loose... typically at the throttle body. Make sure that the plenum is seated in the rubber connector hoses at both ends, and that all hose clamps are tight. What usually happens is someone forgets to tighten the clamps and the plenum pops up out of the rubber when on boost. Since you are losing metered air, not only are you lacking boost but also injecting too much fuel.


Yeah, that's exactly what happened, but he decided to give up on the car anyhow. Swapped the stockers back in and the clicking sound was still there. BTW, they were 260's not 272's.... I believe you don't have to shim anything less than a 270, we didn't have a lean issue either... the car was way rich.... likely cause by the aforementioned plenum.

#23 Steveman09

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 09:12 AM

Yeah, that's exactly what happened, but he decided to give up on the car anyhow. Swapped the stockers back in and the clicking sound was still there. BTW, they were 260's not 272's.... I believe you don't have to shim anything less than a 270, we didn't have a lean issue either... the car was way rich.... likely cause by the aforementioned plenum.



Yeah the 260's are totally different.




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