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EA82 Cam case o-ring pics, and hypothesis on TOD.


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19 replies to this topic

#1 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 24 September 2006 - 11:22 PM

I did have one lifter slightly complaining most all the time on my 86 sedan on the passenger side. It was a very slight tick so I mostly ignored it. The time came for head gaskets, and what do I find?

Posted Image

Now I'm about 95% sure this o-ring is original to the car. Head gaskets had the Subaru logo on them so were either original or replaced with dealer new parts. But they definately looked original, and none of the bolts looked touched to me. None of the usual "mechanic's been here" droppings that I could find....

This leads to an interesting question - exactly when did they realize that a "normal" o-ring wasn't good enough and switch to the metal impregnated form we all see from the dealer today? The new ones I got from Lithia Subaru were definately rubber-over-metal style.

Which leads me to wonder how many people out there have TOD they simply will never get rid of without replacing these?

Was there a recall at some point? A service bulletin perhaps?

This sedan I have was meticulously maintained by an old man - he wrote EVERYTHING down in the manual - even circled the original brand of spark plugs that came with the car from the dealership...... yeah, clearly a nutball, but I have to admit this is the best running carbed EA82 I've seen with 230,000 on it. Never ticked any major amount for me in the last 20,000 I've had it, and all evidence so far sugests the slight tick I had to be gone with the new case o-rings.....

What say ye?

*edit* I should probably mention this isn't the first time I've found non-metal rings. I replaced what appeared to be original HG's on an 87 Carbed engine about a month ago, and found the same plain rubber rings in it. So if those are to be beleived, the change happened after 87 sometime.

GD

#2 Syonyk

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 12:10 AM

Interesting.

Anyone here have a good standing relationship with an ancient Subaru tech at a dealer that might be able to shed some light on this?

Thinking about it, I'm 99% sure that the cam cover o-rings on my '88 DL were just plain rubber ones. I had to replace one because it was dumping (literally) a stream of oil out. I replaced it with a plain rubber one, and just took the pieces of the old one in to match. It was in a few pieces, but I'm quite sure I'd remember if it had metal somewhere in it (and wouldn't have replaced it with a plain rubber one).

Who has found metal rings? Or, are the metal ones holding up well enough that very few people have had to replace them?

-=Russ=-

#3 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 12:19 AM

Just for future reference, the metal ones are availible at www.thepartsbin.com, so the problem has obviously been noticed even by the aftermarket. That's a rare occurance.

http://oem.thepartsb...O-Ring&dp=false

GD

#4 NorthWet

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 12:40 AM

86 XT had rubber-only, and FHI "swoosh' on HGs. Will be opening up an 88 XT in a week or so... Have to check to see if my old 87 "T" still has the o-rings stuck to the parts.

Picked up a bunch (8?) of rubber-over-metals at the dealer a while ago. Hadn't seen anybody else list them.

#5 buzzcon

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:43 AM

Okay so, my 86 gl sedan, hydraulic lifters started tapping after I drove the car for a while, kinda off and on; now they're tapping continuously. Could that be from rubber o-rings? :confused:

#6 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 01:51 AM

Okay so, my 86 gl sedan, hydraulic lifters started tapping after I drove the car for a while, kinda off and on; now they're tapping continuously. Could that be from rubber o-rings? :confused:


Yes - definately. The picture you see is from an 86 sedan in fact. Could also be oil-pump mickey-mouse o-ring gasket, or also dirty lifters (in my opinion, that's usually not the case). Usually it's from air being sucked into the lifters from somewhere. Mostly this o-ring on the cam tower, and the oil-pump gasket.

And check your oil level to make sure it's full. Quickest way to noisy lifters is an empty oil pan :rolleyes:

That one in the picture is HARD - like petrified hard. There's nothing rubber about it after 20 years in a 190 degree engine.

I would highly recommend replacing them, and the oil-pump gaskets. It's inexpensive (the parts anyway), and the labor isn't too bad. Gives you a chance to inspect a lot of things down there in the timing belt areas.

GD

#7 buzzcon

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 02:21 AM

Whoa :banghead: How much do I have to take apart this time? Can the engine remain in the car or does it end up all over the driveway? Sounds like I've never done this before, huh? How many petrified rubber o-rings are we talking about, anyhow?

#8 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 03:21 AM

Basically means you have to strip the engine down to the bare block and heads. Yes - it can be done in the car easily. I did it today and yesterday all at once. Took about 12 hours total probably. But I did a lot of cleaning, degreaseing, etc, and I did head gaskets too, which is a whole extra couple hours of taking the exhaust off, taking the heads off, cleaning the bolts, gasket sufaces, etc, and then careful reinstallation and proper torque. Just the HG's add another 4 hours to the job I would say. Cam o-rings and oil-pump seals could easily be done on in an afternoon.

Just start removing things. You will need intake gaskets, cam case o-rings (there's two of them - one on each cam case), and RTV for the cam cases. Oh - and assembly lube to hold the rockers in place when you install the cams. DONT use grease - it's not oil soluble, and will clog the lifters. Leave you timing belt covers off, remove the air injection system, and replace some seals.... good times, good times.

GD

#9 buzzcon

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 03:40 AM

Thanks for the info, I think:headbang: Sounds like a lot of fun, I can't wait to get started, I'll let you know what those o-rings look like, when I get some time to work on it.

#10 grossgary

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:42 AM

he said 12 hours, but he did a full head gasket job. that requires lots more cleaning and all of the head bolts, intake and exhaust. there's alot of extra work in the heads. to just remove the cams and replace this o-ring is much easier, though still a big job. very easy to do in the car but there are many tricks that help smooth the job out too. i'd read as many threads here as possible.

with all the effort to remove the cams i'd replace all the HLA's myself. new rebuilt units are only $5 a piece from mitpah engineering.

the 87 and up EA82, EA82T and ER27 motors i've disassembled had the metal o-ring variety. never done any older than that....i don't think.

#11 bgd73

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 03:21 PM

What is the official date for change on this? My guess is 1987 like grossgary's experience, and a little bit of my own....
There is another thread here attempting to doc changes.. this would be a decent fact to remember.
I am still getting no replies about ecu parts... its frustrating and enlightening all the time with this range of ea82 years. They did indeed change things as time went along, all while possibly looking the same from a distance.I have even argued until actual photographs, with opinions that they are all the same. This place sets it straight, I am lovin it.:)

oh, the "tod" stuff... My 87 went though many oil changes, with different brands. It was quite casual about it, even through the seasons. humid wetaher was only thing that set it off, regardless of temperature. My 93 knows it has different oil, and can't be down more than .25 quart. It is the only time my 93 does it.I wondered if the actual surfaces to lube are different and like to reject more, stubbornly from an 87 to a 93. I would swear for the same compression numbers, my 93 is by far a beefier little engine that could. I am assuming for the time it is the tight vacuumed spfi vs the bigger carb i had on the 87. Hard telling without compression testing both.

#12 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 10:04 PM

Probably some time in 87 they changed them. I did an 87 a month ago that was rubber only, and some of you guys have seen rubber/metal, so that's probably a good guess.

As to you 93 having more power - sure. They probably made some changes over the years to improve valve springs, and it might even have a different cam profile.

With the Weber on my 86 though, it goes very well. For being low geared, and 4WD, it moves with plenty of quickness. It was horribly slow with the original Hitachi.

GD

#13 Syonyk

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 05:16 PM

Sorry for the bump, but just another data point:

My '92 Loyale had pure rubber o-rings in it when I pulled the engine apart.

I asked at the Subaru dealership when they changed things, and apparently that was a change after the end of the EA82 production, according to one guy. Not sure how true that is or not, but mine definitely had pure rubber.

-=Russ=-

#14 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 05:20 PM

Weird - I just did a 91 Loyale engine and it was rubber/metal. Is it possible your's have been replaced before? This engine I just did only had 145k on it, and the HG's were OEM.

GD

#15 Syonyk

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 05:23 PM

I suppose it's possible... only 145k on the clock, though.

Unless the metal had all rusted away. There was definitely no metal in the o-rings when they came out, and they were (as expected) rock hard & brittle.

-=Russ=-

#16 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 05:39 PM

Well that sure is strange. Maybe some got it and some didn't. I wonder if different factories were still useing up old stock of the rubber ones or something. Seems really hit and miss on them. The metal can't really rust away, so.... it's all a bit confusing isn't it? :-\

Can you see the fuji logo on the old HG's?

GD

#17 Syonyk

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 05:48 PM

I didn't pull the heads.

-=Russ=-

#18 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 05:50 PM

I didn't pull the heads.

-=Russ=-


Well heck - you're no fun then :lol:

GD

#19 jeffast

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 06:36 PM

just to use my two cents, i believe all the er27's had metal ones but i'm going to ask about this tonight on the xt-6 board

#20 grossgary

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:10 AM

I know this thread is old, just adding to it.

XT6's definitely all have the metal orings.

One XT6 engine many years ago had rubber only orings and I got it knowing it had been apart. Was surprised since they are well known on many Subaru boards and accustomed to old school Subaru's. I asked and he said he wasn't thinking or something ambiguous like that, a mistake.

If there's one or a very few cases of a rubber oring in a later model like a Loyale I would anticipate it was replaced at one point or the motor swapped. actually it looks common for even Subaru folks to simply install regular orings....LOL (which I don't recommend):
http://www.ultimates...ad.php?t=109463

The difference between a metal reinforced oring and an old brittle rubber oring isn't huge, I can see not noticing. The old metal reinforced orings can be "sucked in" or deformed like a rubber oring as well, maybe just the rubber part is deformed but it's deformed nonetheless. For those two reasons, it seems easy to loose the distinction between the different orings over time, particularly for folks that have seen differing amounts of both styles.

Edited by grossgary, 13 January 2013 - 07:39 AM.





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