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ER27 Swap into 93 Loyale


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#1 MoscowSubaruDude

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 12:01 PM

Ok... I've been debating whether I want to do an EJ22 or ER27 swap next summer... and I've decided to go with the bigger displacement, barring some info to the contrary. Now... I've never done anything on this order. I've replaced motors, but never swapped a different one in... can't be too different, but I'm going to ask a bunch of questions, get parts lists, etc. By next summer my 'working on car' space is going to be almost non-existant, so I'll be borrowing a driveway... I expect to do this swap in about a week or less, so basically I will have every single part I could possibly need before I yank the EA82. Here's my understanding of it so far.

Bolts right up to 5sp D/R, same bolt pattern. Big bonus for me.
Top-mount radiator necessary due to the extended length... I've been eyeballing on mine, the A/C condensor might have to go elsewhere also, which could get very interesting.
Besides the complete motor, I will need the harness (or make my own) the ECU, and a ton of other little stuff (I'll figure that out shortly).

Now for q's...

Does the stock xmember work? or do I need the XT6 'member? If the motor mounts are in the same location as on the EA, that's an awful lot of overhang on the front of the motor... I'm thinking the XT6 member.
Parts list. Anyone that has done this before, I'm looking for as complete a parts list as is humanly possible. I'll be accumulating parts over the winter, piecemeal, as I find the time and cash to do so. Any hints, tips, tricks, problems encountered... basically I'm learning from ya'lls experiences, and hopefully not making the same mistakes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, pics, stories, part numbers, etc.
Also if anyone has the motor, harness, or ECU layin around, PM me... it'll be a bit, but I'm actively looking for one. Doesn't have to run, just has to be rebuildable, as I'll be doing a full rebuild.

#2 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 12:05 PM

Too difficult to fit, and parts are too expensive. Has all the same head problems of the EA82 since it's an EA82 with two more cylinders. Go with the EJ - less fitement issues, and with a few mods they can have just as much HP.

If you want a 6, then use the EG33 from the SVX. At least that engine is bulletproof, and has enough extra HP to be worth the effort, and is narrow enough to fit between the rails. Beleive me that the bell-housing will be the least of your worries fitting a 6 in there.

GD

#3 grossgary

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 12:16 PM

i echo what GD said. if it's for power definitely don't go with the ER27. i've owned 10+ XT6's and have played with these motors for close to 10 years. not worth all that effort in my oppinion. i guess the hp numbers look way higher than EA's, but they are sloooww and there isn't much modification to be done to them. go with an EJ series motor and trans swap (or get an adapter plate to keep your EA trans). if power is the goal, get a turbo motor. if reliability is the goal, go with an EJ.

pretty sure the ER27 will drop right in your EA cross member. the XT6 just has a front motor mount that the EA motors don't have. you'll have to fabricate something for that unless you want to chance it (i wouldn't).

but the EJ will drop right on your crossmember as well.

by far the easiest (and much cheaper) way to do this is buy an entire car. i've gotten 4 free XT6's and other free subaru's and plenty others for real cheap. an EJ series subaru can be had for chump change as well. you've got a lot of time, so find a place to store it and keep your eye out for a wrecked EJ or something. turbo EJ motors can get expensive, a cheaper solution may be to install a non-turbo EJ and put a turbo on it, others have had excellent results doing that.

#4 MoscowSubaruDude

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 01:09 PM

That is precisely what I was looking for, many thanks. I don't want a turbo motor, because I need the low-end torque. So anyone have any idea what the SVX motor is gonna look like, swap-wise? I've never heard of anyone doing it, but I do know it's plenty powerful and strong... I'm assuming the bellhousing is different, and I haven't the foggiest idea on how to build a n adapter plate, so that's one big hurdle. Dimensions, mounting, etc... yikes, I may just wind up doing the EJ swap after all. I really want the basic power of the 6 though... general principle... bigger is better, and a 6 cranking, say 200 ponies, is more reliable than a 4 doing the same... less stress.

#5 grossgary

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 01:13 PM

and a 6 cranking, say 200 ponies, is more reliable than a 4 doing the same... less stress.

that's the thing, you'll be very very hard pressed to even come close to 200 hp in an ER27. i can't stress enough how limited they are stock, even with all the basic intake, exhaust and other tidbits...they don't even come close to 200.

huck over at www.xt6.net just finished installing an EG33 into his XT6. it was tight and required a ton of work, but he is documenting it. he's included a basic list of everything that was needed. it was very tight in an XT6, not sure how a loyale would fair.

i think the EG33 would be the way to go. i've seen a number of SVX's sell in the $400 - $1000 range. usually had issues, but you just need the engine and goodies. thing that sucks is that all SVX's came stock as auto trans so you'd be hard pressed to find a complete donor with EG33 and manual trans.

#6 MoscowSubaruDude

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 01:30 PM

I'll be using the EA82 trans, if it'll handle the power... I'll go take a look at that right away... anyone have some measurements for the EG33 that I could have? I'll go measure it out one of these days, see if it's feasible in a Loyale.

#7 Numbchux

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 01:58 PM

I'd highly recommend changing the tranny. because it really sucks having all that low end torque, and only FWD. you really can't use it, except when passing.

if you do go EG33...get a legacy 4.111:1 AWD 5MT and rear diff. or any EA82 full-time 4WD trans. even an XT6 one (not sure on the fitment of that....though)

about the XT6 motor....it has the normal EA82 crossmember, but it also has one more motor mount out in front of that. you'd have to get pretty creative in attaching that. a local guy put an ER27 in his lifted hatch, and cut out the front of the car, all the radiator supports. moved the radiator forward, then built a beefy front tube bumper that holds the front of the car together, aswell as the front of the engine.

the EJ swap is really the best option. the 4-cyl fits incredibly well, and is very light. the MPFI and comp. controlled ignition, aswell as superior intake/head design allow for way more torque than you'd expect from just a .4L displacement increase. it's going to be the same swap electrically speaking as anything else you're talking about (simpler, in fact, since there are only 4 injectors etc.). the bellhousing is a snap. the cost difference between an EG33 and EJ22 will be far greater than the measly cost for an adapter plate. parts are much more available/affordable for the EJ22 than any other option. and it still has too much torque for just FWD (unless you drop a ton of money into tires...)

oh yea, and an EG33 has the same bellhousing as an EJ22

#8 MoscowSubaruDude

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 02:23 PM

Umm... I've got 4wd:P So traction shouldn't be much of a problem... this car is going to be a super-beefy homemade custom lifted job... aka transfer case swap and 33'' tires *maybe* solid axles. I do mean beefy. I need power to turn all this, so I'm looking for the biggest motor I can cram in this car, and fabrication is an option. Good to know on the bellhousing being the same as the EJ22 though... makes my life easier. I want to get the motor in, dialed, and completely setup before I start playing with the suspension. No point being all beefy if I can't run it. I'll be running the 5mt D/R, and something that has crossed my mind a time or two is saving about 4 paychecks and springing for some seriously whacked out custom axles, like the 70 degree ones I remember ShadyIrishMan talking about at one point. Figure on some heavily lengthened control arms front and rear, and perhaps even a heavily fabbed double-a arm suspension, so I can use coil-overs up front and get some travel. Sounds crazy, but I'm insane, and I've got tons of patience... and the willingness to do it. Point is, I need power. No turbo. Might go supercharged, get better low-end torque, so I may be able to live with an EJ22, however, think about it... 3.3 liters, and 6 cylinders... can support a good chunk more power than the EJ. This is all just brainstorming at the moment, something I cooked up on the drive down here to Moscow this weekend, but I do intend to do something to this car to achieve the following goals: A) As much power as I can *reliably* produce, with, say, a 50k minimum, preferably 100k mileage before rebuild, and B) as much independent suspension travel and clearance as I can fab.

Alright I'm done dreaming. Anyone who has any input besides 'you're an idiot' I'd love to hear it... ya'll have tons of combined experience, and I'm willing to listen.

#9 grossgary

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 02:31 PM

i have heard great things about the EG33 in terms of supporting forced induction. the ER27 is a terrible candidate for high power applications from the highly experienced and knowledgeable people that i've talked to. catch 22...sort of, the one that needs the forced induction (ER27) is a far cry in terms of block design for supporting it. the EG33 with 230 hp, comes with almost 100 hp more right out of the box than the ER27. and it's a better block design for high power applications. there are also kits available for that motor. there is nothing for the ER27. (the EG33 also functions as a non-interference engine !!)

#10 Numbchux

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 03:47 PM

WOA!! back up there, this is for an offroad rig?? then an EJ22 will be overkill, especially if you're using a second, divorced transfer case. offroading isn't about power, it's about gearing, and with 2 tcases, you'll have more gearing than you'll know what to do with.

seriously, find a local wheeling group (not fullsize pickups with 40" swampers that go tear up the wildlife habitat... look for jeeps, toyotas, nissans, etc. www.nsw4x4.com is my favorite local group), and ride along with them, if they're serious, and responsible, they'll be more than happy to oblige. and you'll quickly see that it has nothing to do with sheer power.

#11 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 04:18 PM

+1 on the power. Samuri's and Yoto's wheel all day on 33"+ tires with around 100 HP. The sammi's only had about 70-80 stock, and even with the modified swift engines people put in them, it's still only 110 or so. And the Yota's running the 22R and 22RE are pushing around 140 - same as the EJ22.

Another example - the military Hummer. 160 HP diesel. And the H1 weighs around 6,000 lbs. All about gearing.

More power won't help you. A 6 will just make it too front heavy. Speed = broken suspension, and blown tires. You want nice slow crawl speeds unless you are building a mud-bog machine, in which case you don't want a transfer case, and you'll need at least a blown pontiac 400 SB in there....

GD

#12 Loyale 2.7 Turbo

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 05:58 PM

As one of the "ER27" Swapers... I just wanna say, about the complications on Mountin´ and Lack of Power on the ER27 mentioned here... : IS SAD BUT TRUE! :-\ ... Let me Explain:

I got two Loyale wagons, The White one with the EA82 (Weberized) that is my everyday Ride, and another one in Tonka Yellow, with the ER27... The one on my Avatar.

First it seems to be complicated, but step by step, it isn´t too hard to do, but some issues like the "No Place for a Radiator" (My Er27 Loyale, got some sort of... a Pair of small radiators, interconnected, and with a Electric Fan each one, at one side of the Engine, to handle Temps) and the Extra Weight of the Engine, makes the Brakes to work too poor, sometimes they act as poor as a shoe on a bike´s tyre, :mad: but after all, the Car with the Extra two cylinders, becomes More Powerfull.

I Suggest to Swap on a EJ engine, specially if you can obtain a Powerful one, from a newer Legacy, or Impreza, because 4 cyl Engine is lightweight, ... and Brakes won´t handle good the car with extra Weight and Extra Power,... :eek: ...along with the steerin´ and suspension problems (mine is Always a li´l Facin´ down, like Downhill, even with new suspension -reinforced by a Ford Tempo´s Spring Coils- and steerin´ became Heavy)

Also, about the idea to increase the suspension range, you can find very good Commercial Liftin´ Kits, from many people, try search here, at this threads.

Just to Finnish: My ER27 Loyale, got the Brakes and the Overheatin´ Problems, along with the Suspension and steerin´ minor issues... ...but anything else is Workin´ Soo Nice :) ... But if I can do the "Back in Time" thing... I for sure, will choose an EJ engine instead.

Good Luck! :headbang:

#13 Jack in Norfolk

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 06:01 PM

I also agree with the power issue. Sure its fun to say I have an huge amout of HP coming out of my rig (esp a sube), but its not the point. I do most of my offroad driving on the beach and in the mud as there arent any hills or rocks around here, so I guess mine is a slightly different perspective. Even so, I pass a lot of stuck full size Chevy's and Fords with monster tires and monster engines in my stock 4.0 Jeep. Those guys that got stuck probably couldn't keep thier feet out of the carb....

#14 MoscowSubaruDude

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 07:31 PM

Well... the plans are still in the making, hence the massive brainstorm here to be examined by those who have done this sort of thing before. Approx HP goal I'm looking for is about 150-180, and torque about 130-150... semi-flat torque curve, starting strong at about 1500. If I have to find a better cam, I will. So if the EJ22 will get me that with less hassle, and decent reliability, then great... the more I look at the EG33 swap, the gnarlier it gets... I just know that 90hp, as I currently have, doesn't cut it... about half of what this car gets at the moment is on road, and I need more power... with larger tires, it's going to get worse, and I can't drive it in 4lo all the time, especially not with the transfer case swap. I'm now leaning heavily towards the EJ22 motor (amazing what a few well-worded posts can do to a guy:brow:). Thanks for the input, I'm going to go ruminate, and do some thinking. Any further ideas are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

EDIT: Minor addition from said ruminating... With decent torque and loads of gearing, I do realize the axles will become consumable, even more so than normal... that's expected and OK. Better than other drivetrain parts.

#15 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 07:48 PM

Axles won't be much of a problem if you get NEW axles that are well built. You are going to destroy a LOT of diff stubs. Rooinator was having that exact problem with his. When you get up into the 30"+ tire sizes, the Hitachi R160 isn't going to cut it. The R200 from a nissan (same as the STi rear diff) might be a better choice, but you are going to need custom flange mount axles.

GD

#16 Numbchux

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Posted 02 October 2006 - 11:41 PM

you need to decide what you want first.

if you're doing a divorced tcase, and if so, what you're using for axles/diffs.

if you're staying with independant suspension, but also going to a divorced transfer case. the torque of an EJ22 and that much gearing is going to destroy stuff. namely diff stubs as GD said. if you have to go EJ22, convert it to an automatic. that way you can get the steady application of power so you won't destroy stuff. if you do go divorced tcase, you can run it with the subaru tranny in lo, and the divorced tcase in RWD hi, for some reduction, but not insane, and 2WD, so you can use it on the road.

if you are going divorced tcase, however, I would highly recommend solid axles, that would solve alot of your reliability problems. but even so, I wouldn't consider an EJ22, because that much strain on the drivetrain will probably destroy the rear output on your tranny (you wouldn't be the first!).

offroad subarus are really best with 4" lift, stock drivetrain, EJ22, welded rear, custom skidplate, and custom tube bumpers. beyond that, the ball really starts rolling on things that need to be reengineered (and even with that setup....be prepared to go through rear diff stubs).


cliff notes: if you're adding a tcase, stay with the EA82, that way you'll have a harder time breaking things. if you're not, go EJ22.

#17 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 01:32 AM

I have to agree to some extent with the above, but I must add that independant CAN work if done properly. The Hummer H1 is a good example. The axles ARE fuses. I've broken more H1 axles than I care to remember, but the saving grace is with 12 bolts the axle drops out and drops in again in about 15 minutes. The automatic does help (all H1's are auto's), but the trucks weight just under an a$$load, so there is still a LOT of forces on the axles. Mostly I've broken them trying to climb boulder ridden mountain sides under full lock turns, etc....

Independant is definately still my choice (anyone that's driven the H1's much would agree), and when I get around to it (and my funds get around to it) I'll most likely be using some combination of porsche 930 CV's, R200 diffs with air lockers, and a Samuri t-case with 5:1 gearset. There is some engineering that must go into the axles, but it's nothing that hasn't been done already. The R200 is already set up for flange mount half-shafts, so it's basically a marriage of the two (subaru, nissan truck), with some custom control arms to start, and later add the 930 CV's with a slip yoke.... yeah it's a mess. Safe to say that with the stock diffs and axles you will be sorely dissapointed as they are not up to the EJ22 and t-case. Sorry.

GD

#18 daeron

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 05:22 AM

okay.. im a little vague on my terminology here, but i am also a nissan guy...

by flange mount halfshafts, you mean the halfshaft style that I have out on my 75 280Z. the diff has an ear on either side, with four holes, and the halfshaft mounts to that.

Later 300ZXs had a cv axle-type spline connection into the rear diff, its a not uncommon conversion to do on your older Z because those halfshafts and the U joints are getting hard to find (good new ones anyhow)

I dont know jack about wheeling, i dont know what makes one type of driveshaft desirable over the other.. BUT if you want an R200 rear diff that uses splined drive axles instead of flanged then the 300ZX's R200 (which are currently dime a dozen in the boneyards around here, as long as your not looking for LSD) offers you that. However, the flange-mount halfshafts are mighty easy to swap out if you bust em..... I dunno, If i have made a contribution to some knowledge here, ask me more about it and i can find out.

Just figured I would throw that out there. never hurts to get knowledge from outside the subaru box, yanno?

#19 grossgary

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 09:22 AM

for what you want the EJ22 sounds like the best option. they are much lighter and can should easily get you to the 150+ hp mark. they are super cheap, easy to find, light weight and will fit easily as well. and you could get an entire donor car for next to nothing as well. SVX EG33 will be much trickier on all accounts and much more front end heavy. EJ22's are a super cheap and easy to find.

#20 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 11:33 AM

okay.. im a little vague on my terminology here, but i am also a nissan guy...

by flange mount halfshafts, you mean the halfshaft style that I have out on my 75 280Z. the diff has an ear on either side, with four holes, and the halfshaft mounts to that.


Yes, that's the general idea. Sadly, the early z-car u-joint axles are not useful for a subaru as they don't have enough stretch, and also cannot be used on the front end due to the need for CV's on the steering axles. Mainly the change to the R200 is because of the R160 stub weakness, as well as the availibility of air lockers for them.

GD

#21 Numbchux

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 04:18 PM

GD: I agree wholeheartedly as to the capability of independant suspension. I got to spend an afternoon with a group of hummers (real ones, not ugly suburbans...). and boy was it impressive.

HOWEVER, we're not dealing with a hummer, it's a subaru. and in order to get the subaru up to the hummer level, you'd still have to completely reengineer the entire car......solid axles would be simpler, and almost as capable.....or daily drive the subaru and buy something beefier to start with.

#22 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 03 October 2006 - 05:26 PM

Not the entire car - just some select suspension components. It's nothing that the baja bug community hasn't already done many times over for a couple decades. There's many examples of super beetles with 25-30" of travel.

Getting something like the H1's geared portal's going for a subaru will be a lot more difficult, but I have a few ideas there as well. I need to expand my machine shop tools but I know it can work - it's just going to be a matter of how many prototypes I have to break before I manage to get it right.

GD

#23 daeron

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 02:50 AM

Yes, that's the general idea. Sadly, the early z-car u-joint axles are not useful for a subaru as they don't have enough stretch, and also cannot be used on the front end due to the need for CV's on the steering axles. Mainly the change to the R200 is because of the R160 stub weakness, as well as the availibility of air lockers for them.

GD


my point was, i believe that the later 300ZXs used a spline drive halfshaft system on their rear ends.... i dont know jack about it beyond that (ie shaft diameter, spline count) but the parts may be interchangeable on the outputs of the axle..

again, my axle terminology isnt up to par, so im kinda reaching for words i dont have. not an experience im used to.

#24 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 03:21 AM

I understand what you are getting at, but the flange is superior. Larger diameter spreads out the load better, and it's easier to change the axle. No need to compress it to slide it off the splines, just remove the bolts and pull down.

GD

#25 daeron

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 03:59 AM

okay, I see now.. I hadnt thought of the power transfer there.

just trying to make sure none of you people miss something here, thats all. im obviously in over my head, but thats why i read and post here so much.




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