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Cost for rebuilt 1996 4EAT 1996 OBW? and....


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12 replies to this topic

#1 jmickelct

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 09:34 PM

Hi,
Of course a week after doing the extended timing belt job (thanks again for all the help), the tranny started torque binding... (119k mi)

So popped in the FWD fuse and took it to try the power flush. AAMCO said they required a "full external inspection" (apprently checking the solenoids, electronics etc...) and even pulled the bottom pan. (no cost)

*Lots* of metal' they refused to do the flush, said that I would need, in addition to the clutch pack that the Subaru dealer said I would need (~$1600-1800), also a $2500-$3200 transmission rebuild.

Since I just paid $3600 for the car (June) and put ~$900 into the tb, water pump, plugs etc..., I'm obviously somewhat reluctant to stick in another $4-5k!

AAMCO folks seemed straight shooting enough, and with dire warnings that a transmission flush could "break the bands" and possibly cause the seals to leak "leaving me without a car that moves" I'm weighing my options.

Car needs tires, so am tempted to start with them, do the flush and say a big prayer.

Assuming the worst (no change), any thoughts about:

Cost of rebuild versus trying to find an already rebuilt 4EAT? (ranges?... Southern NY). (will local shops usually install an owner supplied unit?)

How "doable" is a clutch pack to replace (am competent enought to be dangerous... felt comfortable with the timing belt).

Prioritization, (assuming I was paying to be done) between a bad clutch pack and a tranny grinding lots of metal (though not slipping.... yet).

Thoughts?

-John

#2 Manarius

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 12:36 AM

Dude, just find a used 4EAT that has a final drive that matches the final drive on your rear diff. The overall job, should cost ~1000 (500 for the used tranny and 500 for the job of replacement). If you can find a 4EAT that matches your final drive, it's probably a straight plug and play.

#3 grossgary

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 06:46 AM

do not go the rebuild route, it's not worth it at all.

i wouldn't worry too much about what AAMCO guys said. they're used to seeing Fords, GM's, Hyundais.....they could be right, but Subaru transmissions are quite resilient. though the TB issue is prevalent.

make sure all the tires match (even brand should match since same size but different brand can vary by a decent amount).

then do the flush. do 3 drain and refills yourself if someone else won't do it. i'd wonder about the metal flakes too, i'd want to see them myself. and why in the hell did they pull the pan? that's BS if you ask me. that's just asking for future sealing problems on the pan/gasket mating surface if it was for no reason.

the clutch packs can be replaced in the car. find a used transmission...possibly even a broken transmission and swap rear extension housings. it can be done in the car, without removing the transmission. if you supplied the rear extension housing, a shop will install it for you. just stop in and ask around.

the local transmission shop in town will install your-supplied transmission for only $150 - $200 including a new ATF filter (which for the in pan variety i'd just refuse anyway, not even worth removing and worrying about that stupid o-ring on the neck). i'd say that's on the low end for costs...i'd expect closer to $300-$350 range, but it doesn't take long to swap a trans when you have good equipment.

transmissions can be found in the $250-$400 range without much problem, so this could be well under $1,000 depending on prices. i'd install the FWD, do the flush and just put some feelers out for another transmission. post on the parts wanted forum here.

#4 johnceggleston

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 08:13 AM

do not go the rebuild route, it's not worth it at all.

i wouldn't worry too much about what AAMCO guys said. they're used to seeing Fords, GM's, Hyundais.....they could be right, but Subaru transmissions are quite resilient. though the TB issue is prevalent.

make sure all the tires match (even brand should match since same size but different brand can vary by a decent amount).

then do the flush. do 3 drain and refills yourself if someone else won't do it. i'd wonder about the metal flakes too, i'd want to see them myself. and why in the hell did they pull the pan? that's BS if you ask me. that's just asking for future sealing problems on the pan/gasket mating surface if it was for no reason.

the clutch packs can be replaced in the car. find a used transmission...possibly even a broken transmission and swap rear extension housings. it can be done in the car, without removing the transmission. if you supplied the rear extension housing, a shop will install it for you. just stop in and ask around.

the local transmission shop in town will install your-supplied transmission for only $150 - $200 including a new ATF filter (which for the in pan variety i'd just refuse anyway, not even worth removing and worrying about that stupid o-ring on the neck). i'd say that's on the low end for costs...i'd expect closer to $300-$350 range, but it doesn't take long to swap a trans when you have good equipment.

transmissions can be found in the $250-$400 range without much problem, so this could be well under $1,000 depending on prices. i'd install the FWD, do the flush and just put some feelers out for another transmission. post on the parts wanted forum here.



absolutely!!! change the fluid, maybe do it twice, let it run for a few days inbetween. i think i remember someone changing their's and the tb didn't g opaway for a copuple of days. AAMCO is in the business of selling rebuilt trans or rebuilding trans. i took a truck there a long time ago, they quoted me an astronomical price and when i said no, they came way down. i didn't trust them.

if you can't correct the TB, i'd go used tranny. you can try used clutch pack, just look at them before you install them. if they don't look good don't put it in. you will have 2 to compare, yours and the new used one. if you go with used clutch pack, i'd spring for new duty c solenoid. it's electronic about 50$ i think. you'd hate to go back in next year because it falis.

but change the fluid first, drain and refill . do this 3 time and you've gotten most of the old out. run it for a while, give it time to clean, and do it again. the power flush is 125$+-. atf is 8$ per gal.

good luck.

#5 jmickelct

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 08:49 PM

Hi Guys,

Good to hear... appreciate it.

Will give it a try.. Put on new tires today; tb is a bit worse, if anything.... Will give the power purge a try and see...

The metal flakes on the bottom of the pan were pretty fine, appeared to be lining most of the pan (not just stuck to the magnet).

Suggestions for sources for used trannies? (apart from local junk yards...) I know of various online sources for new parts, but havent attempted something that large.

And in terms of getting one to fit, what are the variables (I know my 96' was built in Indiana in Dec. 95 and have the VIN...). What else do I need (from my or a parts car)?

Have combed through the list for pointers for swapping the clutch packs, have come up short for any tecnical details\work throughs (have a subscription to All Data, not much of help there). Any pointers on sources for a walk through\sequence? Really good to hear that it can be done in the car.

Cheers,

John

#6 Wayne Boncyk

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 09:04 PM

You'll have to look back a ways (like around 2004 and earlier postings) to get detailed pics and procedures to swap out your clutch pack/extension housing. I think that after a few years of responding to the same question, all the regulars here got tired of re-typing the same detailed answer over and over! :D Anyway, this old thread will give you some info, and John Eggleston posted a lot of really detailed pics of his extension housing and tranny as he did his swap. If you want more details, search the NewGen forum for posts containing "clutch pack" pre-2005!

http://www.ultimates...ght=clutch pack

...and YES, this is a reference to one of my earlier postings -- I did a clutch pack/extension housing swap on my late '95 VIN 1996 OBW. If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me. I'll answer as well as my memory allows! :rolleyes:

#7 jmickelct

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 09:07 PM

Wow,

I guess I missed that.... (I really *did* spend a couple of hours combing through, guess my query skills need some honing).

This is excellent....

This site really is a life saver....

Much obliged...

-John


You'll have to look back a ways (like around 2004 and earlier postings) to get detailed pics and procedures to swap out your clutch pack/extension housing. I think that after a few years of responding to the same question, all the regulars here got tired of re-typing the same detailed answer over and over! :D Anyway, this old thread will give you some info, and John Eggleston posted a lot of really detailed pics of his extension housing and tranny as he did his swap. If you want more details, search the NewGen forum for posts containing "clutch pack" pre-2005!

http://www.ultimates...ght=clutch pack

...and YES, this is a reference to one of my earlier postings -- I did a clutch pack/extension housing swap on my late '95 VIN 1996 OBW. If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me. I'll answer as well as my memory allows! :rolleyes:



#8 Wayne Boncyk

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 09:20 PM

Glad to help! BTW - I concur with all the other postings here that recommend swapping tranny fluid completely. Short of seized up plates in the clutch pack or a failed Duty C solenoid, the single biggest cause of TB is dirty/gummy tranny fluid. A simple drain and fill doesn't completely change the fluid, but I am always wary of a "power flush" unless you use the pumps in the tranny itself as the source of power for the flush. You can do this yourself if you don't mind a bit of a mess. You can detach the hoses that go from your tranny to the fluid cooler next to your radiator, and let the tranny do the pumping for you. Just figure out (I did by trial and error) which of the hoses is the outlet for fluid to the cooler, attach an extension tube to that hose and drain the fluid that is pumped out when the engine is idling and the tranny is in gear into a bucket. You'll get far more out that way than by simply pulling the drain plug on the pan. Don't let the system run "dry" too long (just a minute or two) and then reconnect the hoses and fill with fresh fluid. Do that twice or 3 times and you're pretty much sure to have a complete change!

#9 jmickelct

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 09:53 PM

Hi Wayne,

So you would do it yourself over a power flush?

I was totally clueless that the transmission even ran through the radiator until I pulled my doing the timing belt and, while hand cranking, looking for for TDC realized that I was pumping out this red fluid all over the place!

So you would just pop that line, run it out and repeat a couple of times?

My local parts guy (has a 95 OBW) talked me into trying a quart of Lucas Stop Slip... any sense of how this would compare to some of the other transmission product?

-John


Glad to help! BTW - I concur with all the other postings here that recommend swapping tranny fluid completely. Short of seized up plates in the clutch pack or a failed Duty C solenoid, the single biggest cause of TB is dirty/gummy tranny fluid. A simple drain and fill doesn't completely change the fluid, but I am always wary of a "power flush" unless you use the pumps in the tranny itself as the source of power for the flush. You can do this yourself if you don't mind a bit of a mess. You can detach the hoses that go from your tranny to the fluid cooler next to your radiator, and let the tranny do the pumping for you. Just figure out (I did by trial and error) which of the hoses is the outlet for fluid to the cooler, attach an extension tube to that hose and drain the fluid that is pumped out when the engine is idling and the tranny is in gear into a bucket. You'll get far more out that way than by simply pulling the drain plug on the pan. Don't let the system run "dry" too long (just a minute or two) and then reconnect the hoses and fill with fresh fluid. Do that twice or 3 times and you're pretty much sure to have a complete change!



#10 nipper

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 12:25 AM

Hi,
Of course a week after doing the extended timing belt job (thanks again for all the help), the tranny started torque binding... (119k mi)

So popped in the FWD fuse and took it to try the power flush. AAMCO said they required a "full external inspection" (apprently checking the solenoids, electronics etc...) and even pulled the bottom pan. (no cost)

*Lots* of metal' they refused to do the flush, said that I would need, in addition to the clutch pack that the Subaru dealer said I would need (~$1600-1800), also a $2500-$3200 transmission rebuild.

Since I just paid $3600 for the car (June) and put ~$900 into the tb, water pump, plugs etc..., I'm obviously somewhat reluctant to stick in another $4-5k!

AAMCO folks seemed straight shooting enough, and with dire warnings that a transmission flush could "break the bands" and possibly cause the seals to leak "leaving me without a car that moves" I'm weighing my options.

Car needs tires, so am tempted to start with them, do the flush and say a big prayer.

Assuming the worst (no change), any thoughts about:

Cost of rebuild versus trying to find an already rebuilt 4EAT? (ranges?... Southern NY). (will local shops usually install an owner supplied unit?)

How "doable" is a clutch pack to replace (am competent enought to be dangerous... felt comfortable with the timing belt).

Prioritization, (assuming I was paying to be done) between a bad clutch pack and a tranny grinding lots of metal (though not slipping.... yet).

Thoughts?

-John


First off AMACO is full of BS. They are the biggest rip off this side of the spray on hair commercials.

First qyestion is how did they determine there was metal in the pan? did they drop the pan? Did they test drive the car with pressure gauges on it.

Second, if the cars only problem was TB and it was shifting fine then there is nothing worng with the tranny.

Get a flush at a jiffy lube, or do it yourself. Its a 99.00 gamble vs a rebuilt tranny.

MAN AMMACO PISSES ME OFF

i dont even know where to start, so ill try to calm down. i have a poor connection so cant read what everyone else said. make sure the tires match.

Material in the bottom of the pan is NORMAL. If the car is shifting fine, then you may just need a clutchpack at 800-1000 bucks. Take the car to a dealer and let them look at it.

Used tranies you run a gamble on them having TB also, but the awd section of the tranny can be replaced all on its own.

nipper

#11 Wayne Boncyk

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 10:29 AM

John, sorry I had to drop off early last night, and I didn't see your followup questions until now. Yes, I think you can do the job yourself -- as I said, it is easy, although potentially messy. I have nothing against proper powerflush systems either, especially when a flush is done on these Subie trannys, as they are pretty bulletproof. Old GM and Ford ATs have been known to self-destruct when all the gunk that was holding seals together was removed with a powerflush, but Subaru builds better stuff! I'd only suggest that you do it yourself if 1) You want to save a few bucks, or 2) You like to do much of your own work, to know that it has been done right.

Personally I'm in line with BOTH reasons listed above! :D

#12 Wayne Boncyk

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 10:34 AM

Oh, and regarding the Stop Slip -- I don't think it would help in your case. That's basically a viscosity restorer, used to increase the friction between components in the trans. If you have TB with a 4eat, your problem is that you already have too much friction between the plates in the clutch pack assembly, or that you have gummed up the solenoid/manifold valve hydraulic cct that manages the cluth pack assembly.

#13 jmickelct

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 10:25 PM

Roger on all accounts...

Right now work is sufficiently jammed up that I'm tempted to use the $20 discount coupon I got in the mail to have the local Monroe shop do the power flush.

And Nipper, yes, they did pull the pan (not sure if they were just fishing or not, I actually had a good feeling about the guy but not good enuf to cough up the kind of kaching that he was looking for).

Tires are new, so on to having the flush..., Will report back.

-John


Oh, and regarding the Stop Slip -- I don't think it would help in your case. That's basically a viscosity restorer, used to increase the friction between components in the trans. If you have TB with a 4eat, your problem is that you already have too much friction between the plates in the clutch pack assembly, or that you have gummed up the solenoid/manifold valve hydraulic cct that manages the cluth pack assembly.






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