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More electrical problems. All warning lights on


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21 replies to this topic

#1 youareabus

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 01:57 AM

OK. I'm getting a little tired of this BS already. I still have found no good reason for the CEL to keep throwing EGR solenoid codes so the CEL stays on.

Now, I'm leaving work on lunch and take off down the road, hit a bump and the charge light, the door ajar light and a couple of others come on on the dash. I don't remember what all but several indicator lights popped on at once. The voltage guage went down and was showing about 8 volts. No, the alternator's fine. when I rev it it brightens up like normal. I will throw a meter on it but had no time. I just took the thing over to my shop and parked it.

Somewhere there is a serious bad connection. I have brand new battery cables, new battery, I pulled the 2 big harness connectors (under the battery) loose and cleaned them and put them back together with dielectric grase while chasing the CEL. I have checked the major ground strap from the engine to the body and it is fine.

One thing I noticed when chasing the CEL is once I cleared the codes they would stay off until I drove it down the road. (bump again?).

Somebody point me in the right direction or I'm going to buy a Ford and be done with this......

#2 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 02:35 AM

Check the alternator for AC output. That's really the only way the warning lights will all glow like that. The AC output (faulty rectifier circuit) defeats the diodes in the power circuits of the warning indicators.

As for the CEL - it's probably a bad connection at the intermediate connector going from the ECU harness to the manifold harness. There's two large round connectors - follow the manifold harness to them. The EGR wire is one of the wires in the smaller of the two connectors. Also check that the EGR solenoid connector has power at the black/white wire - should have power in the run position.

But by all means - buy a Ford if you think a Ford of similar vintage will be any better. ;)

GD

#3 youareabus

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 04:10 AM

I'll check the alternator for AC output and see what I get. I already have checked and cleaned those 2 multi-connectors, see post. I will check for output at the connector for power in the run position. I'll do that after I've fixed this latest problem....

I have 4 Fords of this vintage. I don't have these kinds of problems with any of them. I'm not being a DA, It's just that I'm getting a bit frustrated. I bought this car, fixed 15 different problems, and a handfull of other stuff pops up. I like soobies, that's why I bought it. The thing is I bought it to give to my daughter and at this point I can't do that. I keep having to chase down elusive crap. I'm a little worried that as soon as she drives away with it I'm going to get a call.

Are there any upstanding 20-something soobie guys living in Spokane where she's at?......... :)

________________________________________________________

Check the alternator for AC output. That's really the only way the warning lights will all glow like that. The AC output (faulty rectifier circuit) defeats the diodes in the power circuits of the warning indicators.

As for the CEL - it's probably a bad connection at the intermediate connector going from the ECU harness to the manifold harness. There's two large round connectors - follow the manifold harness to them. The EGR wire is one of the wires in the smaller of the two connectors. Also check that the EGR solenoid connector has power at the black/white wire - should have power in the run position.

But by all means - buy a Ford if you think a Ford of similar vintage will be any better. ;)

GD



#4 Davalos

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 07:28 AM

But by all means - buy a Ford if you think a Ford of similar vintage will be any better. ;)


I went from a 1991 E350 to my 1990 Loyale as my main work vehicle (if you can imagine that), and I gotta admit, the more I have it, the more I like is. As soon as I figured out this airplane motor hiding underneath the spare tire in there...

I echo the alternator recommendation - make sure you pull the cable or save-up for some fusible links. Just take it to your local Pep-Boys (or whatever), they printed me-up a great detailed report. Certainly a good place to start

#5 Skip

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 08:09 AM

I'll try and shed some light on these problems.

Which incidentally, I have experienced all that you mention.


Most of which is a reiteration of what GD said.


Disconnect the EGR solenoid and put an ohm meter on the leads to the solenoid.
Wiggle and twist the leads, see if the reading varies. It should remain at approx. 35 ohms.
If it ever goes to infinity that will set the CEL.

Bumps and bruises. There could be two issues here

One side of my cranium tells me the internal voltage regulator OR the alt brushes are going south.
They "brighting up when reved" could be the brushes coming back in contact with the stator,
or if the voltage goes above 15 volts when this happens, the VR is going.

I have also seen in several instances where the main rectifying diodes go open in such a fashion that
the contacts come and go.

The other side of my brain is dead... wish I could remember if it hurt when this happened??

also:

Be sure the alt connection to the charging fusible link (small black box behind the battery, link closest to washer bottle) are tight and clean.
I have had the connection to this link get corroded, this in turn causes heat and the connector
looses it's temper - so to speak.

Hope some of this helps.

In finality, if it has to be a domestic, the blue oval is also my choice. They may make a lot of changes,
but at least they are trying to correct the issues rather than ignore them like some General I know does.



#6 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 01:59 PM

I have 4 Fords of this vintage. I don't have these kinds of problems with any of them.


Most Fords weren't bad, tis true. I just remember things like the Tempo, and it's Merc counter-part. Truely frightening that one.... we have had four Aerostars in the family, and not very many problems between them. Definately the best of the domestics.

GD

#7 youareabus

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 03:23 PM

I am a Ford guy and have always been. Actually I'm a car guy that specializes in Fords and own a business that sells Vintage Mustang parts ( http://www.vintage-automotive.com ) among other things, and had a full service automotive shop for several years. I sold that shop in 1991. I'm behind the times on the every-brands idiosynchrosies.

At the moment I own 9 Fords, vintage 1967 up to a new Ranger. I really do like soobies, I worked on a bunch when I had my shop and compared to most everything out there of this vintage it's a GREAT car.

Please, nobody think I'm down on soobies, I'm not. I like them, that's why I bought this one. I'm just a little frustrated on this particular car because every time I think I have it whipped and can send my girl off down the road 300 miles something else goes wrong with it. I am not there to fix it or put her in another car for a couple of days when it breaks. It's a dad thing.

#8 Cougar

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 07:43 PM

I agree with Skips's recommendation of checking the fusible links for a loose connection.

#9 Bill90Loyale

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 07:48 PM

I agree with Skips's recommendation of checking the fusible links for a loose connection.

Thanks for getting us back on topic Cougar. If I wanted to debate Fords, I'd join a Ford forum.

#10 daeron

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 10:33 PM

I have personally had the dickens of a time with the wire leading from the battery terminal IN to the fusible link block... the connection at the block has been terribly problematic for me.

As for the EGR solenoid, i must remind you that the CEL codes is, in fact, "EGR Solenoid (or circuit)" and it may well be a minimal, or intermittent short in the wires leading up to the EGR solenoid rather than an issue with the system itself... common issue to read about here. Unfortuantely, the only good way I am aware of to check is to painstakingly inspect the length of the accused wires for defects..

As for the "christmas tree" in your dashboard lighting up, I am still thinking the alternator is likely "bad" in some sense.

#11 Bill90Loyale

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Posted 28 October 2006 - 04:45 AM

As for the "christmas tree" in your dashboard lighting up, I am still thinking the alternator is likely "bad" in some sense.

I'll second that motion. I note that you have a "new battery". If you jumped the old battery a number of times, this activity can fry the diodes in the (rectifier in the) alternator. I'd pull the alt and have it tested by your local alt rebuild shop or auto parts store. Once you get these bugs worked out, try to NEVER use the car to jump start others, or take a jump. DAMHIK.

If the alt checks out fine, then put a neatly cut piece of black electrical tape over your CEL light and start saving your pennies for a purge control and/or egr solenoid. My piece of tape is about four years old now, and doing just fine.

#12 RONAN

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Posted 28 October 2006 - 04:54 PM

I`ve had this happen in 2 of my scoobs. Both times it was the diodes in the alternator. An alternator produces a/c voltage and the diodes converts it to d/c. Get your alternator checked out...

#13 Skip

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Posted 28 October 2006 - 05:07 PM

U R a Bus
may have left the building.

Possibly to get a new alt?


#14 youareabus

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 04:09 AM

U R a Bus
may have left the building.

Possibly to get a new alt?


I finaly was able to get back to this car with a couple of hours to really get into it. Yes, the alt was toast, shorted winding. Replaced that and all is well there.

Also got the CEL stuff fixed, something with the resistors I put in for the EGR solenoid and purge solenoid was screwey. I think the ones I used were not enough amperage. I made up some new ones by twisting up 3 (each) 100 ohm resisters (paralelled) to get 33.33... ohms. All dash lights are off and the CEL has not set itself again after 100 miles yesterday. I'm happy now.

I wasn't debating Fords, just responding to others responses. Don't get grumpy on me, I'm grumpy enough for the both of us.... :burnout:

So where is the best place to find these solenoids for a good price?

#15 Skip

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 07:15 AM

I go to a "U Pull It" type boneyard and get them out of Hondas and Toyotas.

The winding impedance/resistance is approx. the same
(don't know if they are fed a duty cycle signal control)
and they last forever.

Just solder swap the connector, little heat shrink tubing and
as the N'yorkr's say "fergitaboutit".


As for the gettin' grumpy
Your
"OK. I'm getting a little tired of this BS already.
I still have found no good reason for the CEL to keep throwing EGR solenoid codes so the CEL stays on.
....
No, the alternator's fine."

And reading your entire initial question vs. the last post you made.

Well I guess some of us old farts take a bit of umbrage.
Sorry, I apologize.

#16 youareabus

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 02:20 PM

I go to a "U Pull It" type boneyard and get them out of Hondas and Toyotas.

The winding impedance/resistance is approx. the same
(don't know if they are fed a duty cycle signal control)
and they last forever.

Just solder swap the connector, little heat shrink tubing and
as the N'yorkr's say "fergitaboutit".


As for the gettin' grumpy
Your
"OK. I'm getting a little tired of this BS already.
I still have found no good reason for the CEL to keep throwing EGR solenoid codes so the CEL stays on.
....
No, the alternator's fine."

And reading your entire initial question vs. the last post you made.

Well I guess some of us old farts take a bit of umbrage.
Sorry, I apologize.


Skip, no apology nessesary but please accept mine. Like I said I was getting frustrated at the situation with this car, that's all. The alt was putting out 'some' amps when I reved it, quite sure after the fact the windings were shorted winding-to-winding not winding-to-ground. Couldn't tell that until I put a meter on it but hey, I shouldn't have said "alternator's fine" until I knew that for sure.

I thought the CEL was something more serious then the solonoids themselves as I had already jumped them out with resistors. Problem was the resistors I used. I'm not sure what the issue was with them but I look at that and see if I can nail down the difference so to help somone else in the same boat.

#17 Cougar

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:27 PM

I would guess the resistance will have to be within a certain limit, say 30 to 100 ohms, but I don't know for sure. I think if the resistance is outside the limits then the ECU will think there is either a short or a open on the line depending on which side the resistor is not meeting spec. You may need about a 5 watt resistor to be on the safe side for power dissipation.

#18 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 08:28 PM

I tried both a 47 ohm, and a 68 ohm 10 watt resistor, and neither would correct my purge code. But who knows.....

GD

#19 Cougar

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 11:01 PM

Since they didn't change things then it sounds like the resistance may need to be less than 40 ohms for the ECU to be happy. It would be interesting to test the limits if one had the time to do that.

#20 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 11:14 PM

I also put in a (supposedly) working solenoid and it tested out to 45 ohms. That's why I tried the 47 ohm unit first - thinking it should be close enough to fool the ECU. All the other solenoids I have around test out to a similar resistance. But again - I'm nearing the end of my rope on this Hitachi SPFI system.

GD

#21 Cougar

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:25 AM

Try connecting the 47 and 68 ohm resistors in parallel and then hook them up to see if that works. It should.

EDIT
By tieing the two resistors in parallel this will make the total resistance now about 28 ohms which may be more what the ECU wants to see as a normal circuit load and not trip a code thinking there is a circuit problem.

#22 GeneralDisorder

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:35 AM

I'll give it a whirl. Thanks!

GD




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