Greg55_99 Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 OK, I'm PO'd! I put rebuilt heads (supposedly) on my 2.2 94 Legacy and it uses oil and smokes really badly the first few minutes after startup. I've replaced the PCV valve and that doesn't seem to have cured the problem. So.. it looks like the valve stem seals are the next culprit. Has anyone changed them with the engine in the car? What's the proceedure? I do not want to pull the engine again like I did when I changed out the heads. This is quite frustrating. The car runs like a dream now but uses 2 1/2 quarts of oil in 600 miles! It's all going out of the tailpipe! The smoke is less visible after warm up but sometimes I can see a puff under hard acceleration. I've got the valve stem seals that came with the head gasket kit. I didn't install them because I was told the Ebay heads had new ones installed already. Silly me. Any ideas? Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uniberp Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 :-\ I hate to tell you but I think it's rings. New heads on an old engine often cause this problem. My experience with subarus is limited, but the principle still applies. The new valves create more vacuum in the cylinder and that is pulling oil up past the worn rings into the cylinder. mpergielelmhurstil97legacy99forester OK, I'm PO'd! I put rebuilt heads (supposedly) on my 2.2 94 Legacy and it uses oil and smokes really badly the first few minutes after startup. I've replaced the PCV valve and that doesn't seem to have cured the problem. So.. it looks like the valve stem seals are the next culprit. Has anyone changed them with the engine in the car? What's the proceedure? I do not want to pull the engine again like I did when I changed out the heads. This is quite frustrating. The car runs like a dream now but uses 2 1/2 quarts of oil in 600 miles! It's all going out of the tailpipe! The smoke is less visible after warm up but sometimes I can see a puff under hard acceleration. I've got the valve stem seals that came with the head gasket kit. I didn't install them because I was told the Ebay heads had new ones installed already. Silly me. Any ideas? Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcspeer Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 New heads will cause the rings to allow more oil to get past, but if most of the smoke is on start up it is most likely draining down past the valve stem seals while engine is not running, but then this may not be easy giving the fact the heads sit the way they do. I had valve stems seals replaced on a chev V-8 engine with out even taking the heads off. They used air in the clylinders to hold valves in place, I dont know if this can be done on a Subaru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Gotta pull the engine to do em. Sorry. Unless they were NOK (genuine subaru) valve stem seals they are probably junk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 It's really easy to screw up the seals putting them on. I did. It's easiest to do out of the car, but if you can't pull it, you can make an air chuck out of an old spark plug. Pull the valve cover and the rockers, then make a fork lever to push the valve springs down and pull the retainers. It will be tight working, and a PITA, but it could be done. I'm going to pull mine out to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 I could see doing it in the car for a couple at most but for all 16 no way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vic/se Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 :-\ I hate to tell you but I think it's rings. New heads on an old engine often cause this problem. My experience with subarus is limited, but the principle still applies. The new valves create more vacuum in the cylinder and that is pulling oil up past the worn rings into the cylinder. mpergielelmhurstil97legacy99forester but sometimes I can see a puff under hard acceleration. greg 55 says! I agree with Uniberp! If it smokes on deceleration then it's more of valve related Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrturbo Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 what do you mean by "supposed to be reman"? depending how far into a rebuild they went into the rebuild you could have guide issues. as far as i know and last time i checked they dont make oversized guides for these heads and if they removed and reinstalled or put new ones in they might not be held in tight enough and could have dropped. on single port heads you can look into the exhaust port to see how far the valve guides are sticking out, dont know if you can see them on dual port. but you can clearly see when they drop, and it will cause the issues you are having for sure. i wouldnt jump right away at saying it is rings, i have had the ring problem before on other engines: 5.0 mustang and sbc, but not on subys, at my work we are constantly sending heads out to have bent valves fixed and reground and never see that as an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 2.5 quarts in 600 miles sounds horrific. a leak down test should show where all this is going. which cylinder/which valve stem and/or which rings are the culprit. depending where/why, thicker oil may mitigate that some if you're going to keep driving it. why was this work done to begin with? what happened to this engine? compressed air in the cylinders will prevent the valve from falling if you want to attempt this in the car. do a search, some people have talked about how to remove the valve stem seals with the engine in the car. i'd pull the heads myself. like shawn said you wouldn't want to do this for all the valve stem seals. maybe if you isolated one a two. but if one or two are bad now i'd probably rather just get it all done right and replace them all. i'd worry that it's wasn't done right, or inferior parts were used and the ones you don't replace may fail in the future. you do not have to pull the engine to do the heads. with air tools you can have both heads off in the same time as it takes to pull an engine out (including set up time of the lift, chains, angling..etc). remove the heads (engine in the car), it's very easy. pulling the engine is a waste of time unless you have to do the rear main, clutch or oil pan at the same time. i think it's a good idea to cool the valve stem seals before installing them to get them in without compromising the aluminum in the heads. i take all my heads to an aluminum head specialist and have had excellent results so i continue to do that and don't actually do my own head work though. but i will say don't buy the cheap valve spring compressor at the auto parts store, they suck on subaru valve springs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg55_99 Posted October 28, 2006 Author Share Posted October 28, 2006 The original problem was a burned valve in one of the heads. I ran it for a while on three cylinders until I got a set of "rebuilt" heads from an Ebay vendor. I pulled the motor and put the new heads on. I've replaced the PCV valve a few other things. This particular engine now has 124K miles on it. (The car is on it's second engine) The other engine I replaced had the EXACT same problem. Whats really frustrating is that the engine now runs GREAT! Smooth as silk and gets up to 33mpg. But it's due an inspection in December and I don't think it will pass a tailpipe test like this. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uniberp Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Did you try seafoam? Maybe your rings are glued into the piston in that one cylinder from not running. Why did that valve burn? is my next question. The other cylinder looks fine. Valves will burn if the the seat recedes and allows gases past the valve head. If the valves are set too tight it can cause the same condition. That's why I like subies and airheads. If you can hear the valves it's probably okay. If the valve was sticking that would burn it too. I don''t see how a burnt valve would affect rings, but you said you ran it on 3 cylinders for a while, so maybe the rings are just gummed up in that one cylinder? At that rate of oil consumption, it seems it would have been occuring previously. The original problem was a burned valve in one of the heads. I ran it for a while on three cylinders until I got a set of "rebuilt" heads from an Ebay vendor. I pulled the motor and put the new heads on. I've replaced the PCV valve a few other things. This particular engine now has 124K miles on it. (The car is on it's second engine) The other engine I replaced had the EXACT same problem. Whats really frustrating is that the engine now runs GREAT! Smooth as silk and gets up to 33mpg. But it's due an inspection in December and I don't think it will pass a tailpipe test like this. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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